Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[hleV]

Super Saiyan is 400x base and draws the hidden power to its limit. It means that however strong a Saiyan is in base form, their hidden power is 400x higher (so it grows proportionally upon getting stronger). So unless hidden power and dormant power are different things (which may be true!), what Rou Kaioshin released was Gohan's maximum capability of that time, not maximum capability he could ever have.

And I'm still waiting for someone to cite the exact thing that Toriyama said about Goku (or whoever) hitting his limit.

[Mjb1985]

Good post Kamiccolo. I also like that view. Everyone has their limits. There comes a point in everyone's life where they just aren't progressing much anymore. This holds true for everyone in DB imo. It's not a set number or anything like that but there's a range where you aren't going to be getting any quality gains anymore.

It started at the CG imo, adding new forms definitely helped, but didnt overall change Goku's position. He was already nearly at his peak.

Base and Ssj Goku from CG is not going to be much different than 7 years of training later or 17 or 30. Getting into the lions share of your power is more or less maxing out imo. Or at least what I consider it to be.

[TheGmGoken]

"Toryama forgets stuff! He's unreliable!"

I never said he unreliable. I'm saying that I disagree with the statement. I not saying the statement isn't canon. I'm saying I disagree with it due to dialog said and the manga's ending. I came off wrong by saying he's forget stuff everytime. As I worded wrong.

he's specifically said that he read through the manga again in preparation for Battle of Gods, so how is the forgetfulness thing even an excuse here?

Didn't know he did that. My mistake. Still disagree with the statement though.

Like I said, there is no reason to discount what Toryama has said about the people being at their strongest.

I discount it because even threw supernatural means. They can still get stronger. I don't believe they're maxed out yet. Well Goku and Vegeta. Those are the two I'm referring to. Through since this a GOku thread I'm just going to talk about Goku.

Just quit saying Toryama is unreliable because he forgets stuff. That's fucking stupid.

I would't call it "fucking stupid" as more of a debatable term. For anything BEFORE he said he re-read the manga. I think you most likely took me saying TorIyama forgot something to seriously. I wasn't saying he's unreliable. I'm saying some stuff I can't agree with him about the series. Now those things he said is canon as he is the author and I'm not above him on that. I just think some things would make more sense. Hence I disagree.

[Mjb1985]

It's such a weird scenario here at times. I keep running into these situations.

1) Daiz says something that contradicts manga or manga is silent.

I accept Daiz logic on everything because AT approves.

2) AT gives an opinion on something in the story.

Oh he doesn't know what he is saying anymore.

Where is the logic?

[Kamiccolo9]

I wasn't talking about you in particular. That's a view that comes up a lot, and I'm tired of it. It's basically saying that the author doesn't have the right to do what he wants with his own work.
And I can't believed I mispelled his name twice. Good catch.

[Kaboom]

And I'm still waiting for someone to cite the exact thing that Toriyama said about Goku (or whoever) hitting his limit.

I'll just leave this here and then resume my non-participatory observation:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-sensei/

Why did you choose this period?
The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Buu arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

Spoiler:

"So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Buu arc”, and before Pan’s birth."

"...everyone had got to maximum strength."

"...everyone..."


Well, Goten and Trunks, I hope you're satisfied with the power you've got now, because you're never going to get any more than 5% stronger or so. Maybe you'll get about 8 times stronger, provided you each get Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on your own someday. But you're doomed to never become leagues stronger than everyone else like Gohan, because apparently your "potential" pales in comparison to his...

[Mjb1985]

Considering how lazy they were portrayed at 28th Budokai perhaps BOG would be their maximum that they attained in their life.

I just don't see how one small issue like that gives us the right to override the entirety of his statement.

[Son_Gohan]

But lets say it is true that Goku has reached his absolute limit in training his MSSJ to get stronger. Once he ascended to SSJ2 and trained in that form, that also makes his MSSJ state get stronger by default as he trains in SSJ2 repeatedly as well as making his base stronger too.

His base form should get stronger, but his SSj1 doesn't have to. The multiplier may just decrease instead.

Super Saiyan is 400x base and draws the hidden power to its limit. It means that however strong a Saiyan is in base form, their hidden power is 400x higher (so it grows proportionally upon getting stronger). So unless hidden power and dormant power are different things (which may be true!), what Rou Kaioshin released was Gohan's maximum capability of that time, not maximum capability he could ever have.

Gohan's resulting appearance doesn't reflect "of that time" though. The ritual looks to have matured his physical features to the age where that power would've been accessible.

[valfranx]

Omg, I am so glad I made this thread. You guys are surely helping me a lot in understanding that it's very possible that Goku (without SSJG) is weaker than Gohan/Gotenks still by the end of the series as a SSJ3.

disagree. after watching in youtube heavy spoilers in 30 minutes, I can calmly say that Goku was much stronger than gohan, before of ssjgod. the point of goku in ssj1, overcome your form to ssj3, as we see in dbgt where goku base form= goku ssj3 in dbz.

Beers says what Goku was more powerful Saiyan, in ritual incomplete to ssjgod after the complete ritual he was even more powerful, you could say quietly that his powers exceed those of vegetto ssj3. on Beers, he was toying all this time, even when goku said he would use the powers of ssjgod to the maximum, yes, in their maximum, this was after the scene goku using 80%, after using all his powers he loses the transformation of ssjgod, is the energy left over from ssjgod he used in its base form and later in forms ssj2. think of goku ssj2 + ssjgod, as a fake ssj1, had the aura,more not the transformation

after being almost defeated, Goku, recovers, ssjgod for a moment.

[Kamiccolo9]

Omg, I am so glad I made this thread. You guys are surely helping me a lot in understanding that it's very possible that Goku (without SSJG) is weaker than Gohan/Gotenks still by the end of the series as a SSJ3.

disagree. after watching in youtube heavy spoilers in 30 minutes, I can calmly say that Goku was much stronger than gohan, before of ssjgod. the point of goku in ssj1, overcome your form to ssj3, as we see in dbgt where goku base form= goku ssj3 in dbz.

That's because you're using anime Goku. Manga Goku is much weaker than Gohan.

[Mjb1985]

Exactly. Elder Kaioshin's ritual completely altered Gohan. It made a man out of him. That's Gohan at his absolute peak imo.

[valfranx]

when you watch the film, will arrive at the the same conclusion that I arrived;

goku overcame all of with ritual of ssjgod incomplete, the characters were impressed with the amount of ki goku ssj, despite not overcome the power of bills, bills said that saiyan goku was the strongest at the moment. after doing the ritual complete, the powers of goku increased further.

[Kamiccolo9]

when you watch the film, will arrive at the the same conclusion that I arrived;

goku overcame all of with ritual of ssjgod incomplete, the characters were impressed with the amount of ki goku ssj, despite not overcome the power of bills, bills said that saiyan goku was the strongest at the moment. after doing the ritual complete, the powers of goku increased further.

The bio of the movies says that Gohan has power surpassing any Saiyan. Goku is a Saiyan. So Gohan>Goku. Goku is stronger as a SSJG, of course, but that isn't his own power.

[Draken]

when you watch the film, will arrive at the the same conclusion that I arrived;

goku overcame all of with ritual of ssjgod incomplete, the characters were impressed with the amount of ki goku ssj, despite not overcome the power of bills, bills said that saiyan goku was the strongest at the moment. after doing the ritual complete, the powers of goku increased further.

Uhm I don't think anyone else in this thread besides yourself is counting SSG in this power debate ._. And I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever.

[SaiyanZ]

Considering Battle of Gods, I would say yes. Though I'm still not sure how enraged SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku .

[valfranx]

no problem with this, because this was before the ritual, with only the incomplete rirual pure of 4 saiyan, goku landed a incredible power. a good example would dbgt where ssj4 goku with the power of gohan, pan, trunks and goten, was enough to overcome the powers of baby Oozaru / Syn Shenron.

LASTLY Because Yūsuke Watanabe (co script writer with Akira Toriyama on Battle of Gods) said so!!
In an interview Yūsuke Watanabe says no being was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku until Battle of Gods. He does not say nothing was stronger than Ultimate Gohan becuase Goku at Super Saiyan 3 was already stronger:
"When I participated in the meetings, there was already talk of, “we’d like to come out with a being surpassing Super Saiyan 3. It would be a Super Saiyan God”.
— Yūsuke Watanabe, GetNavi May 2013 Issue (read full interview--> http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... taff-talk/

This movie is a story set in between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT1; how did you want to do [the film]?
At the end of Dragon Ball Z‘s “Majin Buu arc” (aired 1993–1996), Goku had become so strong that you wondered how he could possibly get any stronger. So I think that’s why, in this movie, Akira Toriyama-sensei designed a new enemy character, “Birus, God of Destruction”, as a being surpassing Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu. Having said that, bringing out a character who’s merely strong is simplistic and uninteresting. Also, in having Toriyama-sensei supervising the scenario that scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe-san wrote, we saw that Birus-sama possessed a multifaceted personality, so I tried to emphasize the overwhelmingly-powerful Birus-sama‘s playful side right from his first scene. In terms of the work overall, we worked to bring out its “Toriyama taste”, so while there are exceptionally flashy battle-scenes, it’s been finished up as a work that includes gags as well.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ro-hosoda/

AND that makes sense because Toriyama wanted to end the series with Gohan but felt Goku was more suited for the role and continued writing Goku's character accordingly: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/majin-buu/

so do not is no nonsense, believe ,that Goku is the strongest character at the end of DBZ, Goku will struggle against bills again in three years, maybe with other gods of destruction, all this before the end of dbz.

[PerfectFreeza]

They were talking about SSJ3, as in the transformation, not Goku.By that logic, even Vegetto would be even weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

[valfranx]

Considering Battle of Gods, I would say yes. Though I'm still not sure how enraged SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku .

The scene where Vegeta casts aside his pride for everyone’s sake was shocking. To think he’d go that far. (laughs)
I thought people might even get angry at me, but in the video, it was even sillier than I’d imagined. (laughs) But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... e-of-gods/

They were talking about SSJ3, as in the transformation, not Goku.By that logic, even Vegetto would be even weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

his movie is a story set in between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT1; how did you want to do [the film]?
At the end of Dragon Ball Z‘s “Majin Buu arc” (aired 1993–1996), Goku had become so strong that you wondered how he could possibly get any stronger. So I think that’s why, in this movie, Akira Toriyama-sensei designed a new enemy character, “Birus, God of Destruction”, as a being surpassing Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu. Having said that, bringing out a character who’s merely strong is simplistic and uninteresting. Also, in having Toriyama-sensei supervising the scenario that scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe-san wrote, we saw that Birus-sama possessed a multifaceted personality, so I tried to emphasize the overwhelmingly-powerful Birus-sama‘s playful side right from his first scene. In terms of the work overall, we worked to bring out its “Toriyama taste”, so while there are exceptionally flashy battle-scenes, it’s been finished up as a work that includes gags as well.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ro-hosoda/

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't believe that it's possible for Goku to even get close to their level as long as he is alive. Once he die later, then he should have the time to do it, but only after many, many, many years. Even in GT, I don't believe that Goku is stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, until he achieved Super Saiyan 4.

If you are including Battle of Gods then...Goku clearly surpassed them with his new form. But even if he did not gain said power all the ads, promotional materials, interviews, characters in the movie, etc. all hype up the villain as "a being that surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku and all other villains," so if that is a big deal then logically Goku would have to be stronger as of Battle of Gods even before his new Super Saiyan God form otherwise the characters and ads etc. would be like a "being that surpasses Gohan/Gotenks and all other villains!"

Goku lost Super Saiyan God in the end. And as for why the promotional stuff, they also stated that Gohan was stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

As for Vegeta's assumption that since Beers is stronger than SS3 Goku, he is stronger than everyone, it's probably because Beers is the Hakaishin (God of Destruction). See how he reacted when he learned that Broli was the Legendary Super Saiyan.

Even about five years after Battle of Gods, in the manga's epilogue, Goku's still not out of his "prime" yet. Neither is Vegeta, who after all of Goku's time spent dead is almost 10 years ahead of Goku in terms of physical aging. Heck, the last thing Goku does as he's flying off with Oob in the final chapter is brazenly declare that he's going to keep getting stronger. Vegeta does likewise in the kanzenban epilogue, promising to defeat Goku someday, which he'd presumably still have to get stronger to do.

So all in all, I think Toriyama's comment about "maximum strength" should be taken with a grain of salt here.

What hleV said.

Goku said he and Gohan had hit the limit back in the ROSAT. 7 years later as a SS2 Goku's stronger than Cell Games' rage-boosted SS2 Gohan. So yeah, that's limits in Dragon Ball.

Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Kame-sennin stop having huge gains after some point, which left them unable to keep up with others. Which seems to mean that once someone hits his limits, his gains through training get very slow.

[PerfectFreeza]

That quote makes Goku stronger than Gohan Boo.And that wasn't Toriyama saying that, was it?