Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

And I now my highly subjective Movie 12 and 13 power levels:

Fusion Reborn

Gogeta- 1,025,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 51,250,000,000

Goku- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 5,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 40,000,000,000

Vegeta- 105,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 5,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,500,000,000

Janemba- 18,000,000
--Super Janemba- 36,000,000,000
---Injured- 32,000,000,000

Wrath of the Dragon

Goku- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 40,000,000,000
---Dragon Fist- 4,000,000,000,000,000

Gotenks-
--Super Saiyan- 22,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 88,000,000,000

Vegeta- 105,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,500,000,000

Trunks- 44,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,200,000,000

Goten- 44,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,200,000,000

Gohan- 122,000,000,000
--Toei-nerfed- 9

Hirudegarn-
--First Form- 75,000,000,000
--Second Form- 150,000,000,000
---Tail cut off- 50,000,000,000

[Kamiccolo9]

I know you said you thought that Janemba was weaker than Goku, but are you taking into account the powerup he did against Gogeta?

[RandomGuy96]

I know you said you thought that Janemba was weaker than Goku, but are you taking into account the powerup he did against Gogeta?

I'm being weaselly here, buuuuuut... I don't think his battle power changed. Janemba doesn't seem like a master of ki control and we've seen numerous times that you can look like you're powering up but not actually change your power level (see Vegeta and Nappa). He may have just been "flexing", since a power up was never noted like it usually is in this kind of situation.

Unless Gogeta outright said "your power's gone way up" or something... then I'll just have to give in to the Toei hax, or at least the Toei multiplier.

[RandomGuy96]

So... finished that lower scaled list I mentioned. I like it this way because now the base saiyans are fodder to Freeza, as was implied by Bills' line. I think I had them too close before. I was also able to integrate the line in the Daizenshuu about kid Gohan = teen Gohan < enraged Gohan. The only thing I wasn't happy with was Cell; I was unable to follow the "Cell's power ups are like the Super Saiyan forms" theory.

MULTIPLIERS

Super Saiyan- x50
--Grade 2- x75
--Grade 3- x125
--Super Saiyan 2- x100
--Super Saiyan 3- x400
--Legendary Super Saiyan- x100

Freeza's Species: natural max is what Freeza referred to as 50% of his power. Counterpart to Super Saiyan.
-Fifth Form: x4. Counterpart to Super Saiyan 2.

"Muscle Mode": x1.5. Generic power up used by several species, involving artificially pumping up your body with ki. Users include Freeza's clan, Super Saiyans, Makyans, and humans.

Super Heran- x1.5

Kaio-Ken- x(level of Kaio-Ken)

Namekian Fusion- (A + B) x 10. Rejoining after a fission is exempt from this rule and has its own set.

Dance Fusion- (A + B) x 8
--Powers must be equal, so it's basically B x 16.

Majin Buu-
--Absorption- (A + B)
--South Kaioshin absorption- (A + B) x 2.5
--Good Buu absorption- (A + B) x 2.5
---Buu's power is usually simple addition, but the effects get more wild when the distinctive godly Kaioshin ki is involved.

Potara Fusion- (A + B) x Y. Y is determined by the difference of powers. If A and B are equal, Y is 200. Otherwise Y is the percentage that the weaker fighter has of the stronger fighter's power.
--Kibito Kai: Kibito's power level of 48,000,000 is 4% of Kaioshin's 1,200,000,000. The fusion was (1,200,000,000 + 48,000,000) x 4
--Vegetto: Goku's base power of 80,000,000 is 100% of Vegeta's 80,000,000. The fusion was (80,000,000 + 80,000,000) x 200.

Attacks:
-Kamehameha (mastered)- x1.5
-Special Beam Cannon- x1.6
-Light Grenade- x1.5
-Galick Gun- x1.33
-Final Flash- x2
-Supernova- x1.6
-Super Kamehameha- x2.22
-Mouth Blast- x1.25

NOTE: A tiny bit of rounding is involved in these attacks to keep the numbers clean. If you want an in-universe reason you can dismiss it as varying states of energy usage, injury, and mastery.

OTHER NOTE: An old Weekly Jump issue gave the power level of Goku at the 23rd Tournament as 910. As I think that this fits the story quite well, I've chosen to use that as my baseline for the Dragon Ball numbers while dispensing with the pre-Z V-Jump numbers, which were littered with errors. I assume that Raditz read Goku's and Piccolo's suppressed powers as 408 and 416, and Goku's true power only came out when firing the Kamehameha. Otherwise the scouter couldn't sense him, just like how Nappa's scouter read all of the Earthlings at weaker than Raditz. Aside from the Dragon Ball ones, the only official numbers I ignored are the ones for the Armored Squadron and the V-Jump ones for Cooler, Broly, and Gogeta- the latter can work but I don't put a lot of stock into them, while the former are just flat-out wrong, since they have every single member of the squad considerably weaker than Gohan.

EPISODE OF BARDOCK

Bardock- 12,000
--Super Saiyan- 600,000

Chilled- 106,000

BARDOCK: FATHER OF GOKU

Bardock- 6,500
--Zenkai- 9,800
Tatapo- 2,400
Selypa- 2,800
Pambukin- 2,920
Toma- 3,600
King Vegeta- 10,000
Vegeta(Kid)- 11,000
Nappa- 4,500

Freeza- 500,000
Zarbon- 20,000
Dodoria- 18,000
Dodoria's Elites- 4,000

Demon Wars

Master Mutatio- 350
Roshi- 280
Shen/Crane Hermit- 245

King Piccolo- 530
Demons- 200

21st Tournament Arc

Roshi (Heavily Suppressed)- 45
--True Power- 139
--MAX Power- 210
---MAX Power Kamehameha (x1.5)- 305
Goku- 50
--Ozaru- 500

Red Ribbon Army Arc

(just a few important ones)

Korin- 190
Goku- 55
--Post-Korin training- 165
Bora- 46

Tao- 110
General Blue- 48

Grandpa Gohan- 150
Devilman- 130
Mummy- 90
Fangs- 79
Invisible Man- 56

Krillin- 85
Yamcha- 70

22nd Tournament/Tien Arc

Goku- 180
Roshi- 139
Krillin- 105
Yamcha- 95

Tien- 160
Crane Hermit- 120
Chiaotzu- 90

King Chappa- 70
Pamput- 20

King Piccolo Saga

Goku- 180
--"Match Level"- 120
--Post-God Water- 540
Tien- 165
Roshi- 139
Yajirobe- 130
Krillin- 105
Yamcha- 95

King Piccolo- 450
--Half Power (vs Goku Round 1)- 225
--Young- 530
Drum- 210
Tambourine- 140
Cymbal- 105
Piano- 7

Kami- 700
Popo- 600

23rd Tournament

Goku- 910
--Weighted/Suppressed (vs Tien)- 610
Kami/Shen- 700
Tien- 560
Krillin- 350
Yamcha- 300
Yajirobe- 250
Chiaotzu- 185
Chi Chi- 130

Piccolo Junior- 880
--Mouth Blast (x1.25)- 1,100
Cyborg Tao- 440
Crane Hermit- 120

Garlic Jr. Attacks Earth

Goku- 920
Piccolo- 900
Kami- 650
Krillin- 400
Gohan (angry)- 1,309

Garlic Jr- 820
--Full Power- 1,230
Nicky- 400
--Full Power- 600
Sansho- 380
--Full Power- 570
Ginger- 360
-Full Power- 540

SAIYAN SAGA

Arrival of Raditz

Goku- 924
--Suppressed- 416
Piccolo- 905
--Suppressed- 408
--Special Beam Cannon (x1.6)- 1,440
Gohan- 2
--Gohan(Angry)- 1,307
Tenshinhan- 625
--Resting- 250
Krillin- 515
--Resting- 206
Yamcha- 443
--Resting- 177
Master Roshi- 139

Raditz- 1,500

Arrival of Nappa and Vegeta

Goku: 8,000
--Kaioken x2: 16,000
--Kaioken x3: 24,000
--Kaio-Ken x4- 32,000
Piccolo: 3,500
--Special Beam Cannon- 5,600
Tenshinhan: 1,830
--Heavily Injured and Near Death- 610
---Kikoho- 3,050
Krillin: 1,770
Yamcha: 1,480
Gohan: 981
--Angry- 2,800
Mr Popo: 1,030
Yajirobe: 970
Chaozu: 610
--Suicide Attack- 2,440
Kami- 600

Vegeta- 18,000
--Galick Gun- 24,000
--Drained and Injured- 9,000
---Oozaru- 90,000
--Drained and Injured further- 3,000
Nappa- 4,000
--Bomber DX (x1.15)- 4,600
Saibamen: 1,200
--Suicide Attack- 4,800

Tree of Might

Goku- 40,000
--Kaio-Ken x2- 80,000
--Kaio-Ken x10- 400,000
Piccolo- 18,000
--Special Beam Cannon- 29,000
Gohan- 10,000
--Oozaru- 100,000
Tien- 6,000
Krillin- 5,800
Yamcha- 5,000
Chaozu- 2,000

Turles- 37,000
--First Fruit- 550,000
--Second Fruit- 900,000
Amond- 20,000
Daiz- 16,000
Cacao- 13,000
Those Two Purple Guys- 5,500

FREEZA SAGA

Prior To Super Long Battle With Freeza

Goku- 90,000
--Kaio-Ken x2- 180,000
--Kaio-Ken x10- 900,000
Vegeta- 24,000
--First Zenkai- 30,000
---Final Crash (x1.2)- 36,000
--Second Zenkai- 250,000
Krillin- 2,100
--Initial Potential Unlocked- 13,000
--Potential Unlocked vs Ginyu-Goku- 25,000
Gohan- 1,600
--Initial Potential Unlocked- 14,000
--Potential Unlocked vs Ginyu-Goku- 27,000
Nail- 42,000
Elite Namekian Warriors- 10,000
Namekian Warriors- 3,000

Freeza- 530,000
Zarbon- 23,000
--Transformed- 32,000
Dodoria- 22,000
--Yuuki lost- 15,000
Cui- 18,000
--Yuuki lost- 13,000
Freeza Soldiers (Namek village)- 1,300
Freeza Soldiers (common)- 500-1000
Banan- 980
Sui- 840

Captain Ginyu- 120,000
--Goku's Body- 23,000
Jeice- 40,000
Burter- 38,000
Recoome - 37,000
--Mouth Blast (x1.25)- 46,000
Guldo- 6,000

Tien- 102,000
--Multiform Clones- 51,000
Yamcha- 50,000
Chaozu- 34,000

Super Long Battle With Freeza

Goku- 3,000,000
--Kaio-Ken x10- 30,000,000
--Kaio-Ken x20- 60,000,000
---Drained and Injured- 50,000,000
----x20 Kamehameha (x1.5)- 75,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 150,000,000
Vegeta- 250,000
--Final Zenkai- 2,300,000
---Crying- 18,000
Piccolo- 78,000
--Weighted- 58,000
--Fused With Nail (Weighted)- 1,000,000
----Without Weights 1,200,000
Gohan- 200,000 (and rising)
-Post-zenkai- 1,000,000
Krillin- 75,000 (and rising)
--Later in battle- 900,000

Freeza- 530,000 (first form)
--Second Form- 1,000,000
----Second Form First Power Up- 1,100,000
----Second Form Second Power Up- 1,200,000 (1%)
--Third Form- 2,000,000
----Third Form Power Up (unseen)- 2,400,000 (2%)
--Initial Final Form - 3,600,000 (3%)
--Final Form (50%)- 60,000,000
--Final Form (70%) (brief burst)- 84,000,000
--Final Form (100%)- 120,000,000

CELL SAGA

Arrival of Mecha Freeza

Goku - 3,300,000
--Super Saiyan - 165,000,000
Trunks - 3,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 150,000,000
Piccolo - 3,200,000
Vegeta - 2,900,000

Mecha Freeza - 7,000,000 (suppressed)
--70% Power (vs Trunks)- 98,000,000
--Full Power (unseen)- 140,000,000
King Cold - 5,000,000 (suppressed)
--Full Power (unseen)- 105,000,000

Cooler's Revenge

Goku- 3,700,000
---Kaio-Ken x10 - 37,000,000
---Kaio-Ken x20 - 74,000,000
----x20 Kamehameha (x1.5) - 120,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 185,000,000
----Kamehameha (x1.5)- 275,000,000
Piccolo - 5,000,000
Gohan- 1,800,000
Krillin- 1,500,000

Cooler-
--"50%" Power/Natural Max (vs Goku Round 1)- 40,000,000
--100% Power- 80,000,000
--Fifth Form: 160,000,000
---Supernova (x1.6): 256,000,000
Salza: 2,500,000
Doore: 2,200,000
Neiz: 2,000,000

Trunks' Bad Future

Future Gohan- 2,500,000
--Super Saiyan: 125,000,000
---Anime Version- 250,000,000
Future Android 18- 205,000,000
Future Android 17- 215,000,000

Arrival of the Androids

Goku- 4,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 200,000,000
--Sick- 170,000,000 (and dropping)
Vegeta- 4,200,000
--Super Saiyan: 210,000,000
---Post-energy drain- 170,000,000
---Post-Big Bang Attack- 130,000,000
Trunks- 3,600,000
--Super Saiyan- 180,000,000
Piccolo- 170,000,000
--Suppressed- 17,000,000
Gohan- 3,500,000
Krillin- 3,300,000
Tien- 2,500,000
Yamcha- 1,700,000

Android 20- 80,000,000
--+Vegeta's ki- 90,000,000
--+Piccolo's ki: 107,000,000
Android 19- 75,000,000
--+Goku's ki- 155,000,000
Android 18- 260,000,000
Android 17- 270,000,000
Android 16- 405,000,000

Return of Cooler

Piccolo- 270,000,000
Vegeta- 4,200,000
--Super Saiyan- 210,000,000
Goku- 4,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 200,000,00

Metal Cooler- 180,000,000
--Post-repair- 360,000,000

Super Android 13

Piccolo- 270,000,000
Vegeta- 4,200,000
--Super Saiyan- 210,000,000
Goku- 4,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 200,000,000
Trunks- 3,600,000
--Super Saiyan- 180,000,000

Android 13- 200,000,000
--Super Android 13- 400,000,000
Android 14- 155,000,000
Android 15- 180,000,000

Imperfect Cell Arc

Imperfect Cell Initial- 230,000,000
--Post-human meal- 420,000,000
Android 16- 405,000,000
Piccolo: 270,000,000
--Exhausted- 220,000,000
---Light Grenade (x1.5)- 330,000,000
Android 17- 270,000,000

Birth of Perfect Cell

Cell-
--Semi-Perfect- 600,000,000
--Initial Perfect- 1,150,000,000

Vegeta- 10,560,000
--Super Saiyan- 528,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 2- 792,000,000
--Slightly Fatigued- 750,000,000
---Final Flash (x2)- 1,500,000,000
Trunks- 10,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 500,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 2- 750,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 3- 1,250,000,000

Cell Games

Gohan- 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,000,000,000
--Enraged Super Saiyan 2- 7,500,000,000
--Final Father-Son Kamehameha (x2.22)- 16,600,000,000
Goku- 40,000,000
--50% Power- 1,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,000,000,000
---Instant Super Kamehameha (x2.22)- 4,400,000,000
Vegeta- 28,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,400,000,000
Trunks- 26,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,300,000,000
Piccolo- 750,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--Against Goku- 2,400,000,000
--Full Power- 3,600,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 7,200,000,000
---Solar Kamehameha (x2.22)- 16,000,000,000
Cell Juniors- 1,500,000,000

Otherworld Tournament

Pikkon- 3,000,000,000
--Burning Shot- 9,000,000,000
Goku- 44,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,200,000,000
0libu- 40,000,000

Super Perfect Cell- 7,200,000,000
Freeza- 160,000,000
King Cold- 130,000,000

Bojack Unbound

Gohan- 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,000,0000,000
Trunks- 30,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,500,000,000
Vegeta- 28,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 1,400,000,000
Piccolo- 800,000,000

Bojack- 2,000,000,000
--Super Bojack- 3,000,000,000
Bido- 1,800,000,000
Zangya- 1,600,000,000
Bujin- 1,400,000,000
Kogu- 400,000,000
--Super Kogu- 600,000,000

BUU SAGA

Tournament

Goku- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 4,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,000,000,000
Vegeta- 60,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 3,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 6,000,000,000
Gohan- 54,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,700,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 5,400,000,000
East Kaioshin- 1,200,000,000
Piccolo- 900,000,000
Trunks- 44,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,200,000,000
Goten- 42,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,100,000,000
Kibito- 48,000,000

Babidi Saga

Goku- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,000,000,000
Majin Vegeta- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,000,000,000
---Suicide Attack (x4)- 32,000,000,000

Gotenks (pre-ROSAT)-
--Super Saiyan- 33,600,000,000

Dabura- 5,000,000,000
Yakon- 90,000,000
Pui Pui- 800,000
Yamu- 12
Spovovitch- 11

Fat Buu-
--Initial- 7,000,000,000
--Power Up 1- 10,000,000,000
--Power Up 2- 13,000,000,000
--Full Power- 26,000,000,000

Fusion Saga

Vegetto- 32,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,600,000,000,000

Super Buu- 260,000,000,000
--Mouth Blast (x1.25)- 325,000,000,000
--Piccolo absorbed- 261,200,000,000
--Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 266,400,000,000
--Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed- 586,400,000,000
--Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 666,400,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta- 1,280,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 512,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan- 400,000,000,000

Gotenks (post-ROSAT)-
--Super Saiyan- 40,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 320,000,000,000

Kibito Kai- 4,992,000,000

Trunks- 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,500,000,000

Goten- 54,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,700,000,000

Tenshinhan- 3,200,000

Kid Buu Returns

Goku- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,000,000,000

Mr.Buu- 29,500,000,000

Vegeta- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,000,000,000

Kid Buu- 35,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed (flashback)- 280,000,000,000

South Kaioshin- 28,000,000,000
West Kaioshin- 3,000,000,00
North Kaioshin- 2,000,000,000
Grand Kaioshin- 1,500,000,000
East Kaioshin- 1,200,000,000
Old Kai- 30,000,000

[Son Edo]

Good BP's RandomGuy

[Draken]

Otherworld Tournament:
Goku- 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,500,000

Dafq bro.

[RandomGuy96]

Good BP's RandomGuy

Thanks!

Otherworld Tournament:
Goku- 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,500,000

Dafq bro.

Fix'd.

[Mjb1985]

I prefer to go with

Korin > Goku >= Gohan > Tao > Devil Man > Mummy > Goku >= Roshi


Tao was at least respectable, Devilman wasn't much to speak of. As well as Korin seemed to still be superior, reminds e a little of Vegeta and Trunks little session in the Gravity Room.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm seriously considering putting Super Perfect Cell ahead of Enraged SSJ2 Gohan. In the beam duel, it's clear he's not trying all that hard, as he's smiling and laughing the whole time. What's more, he can sense ki, so he knows how strong Gohan was when he first transformed and beat the crap out of him, and he was fully confident in coming back, and finally, going out of universe for a moment, what's the point in having Vegeta distract Cell if Gohan was capable of beating him on his own?

Thoughts?

[Draken]

I'm seriously considering putting Super Perfect Cell ahead of Enraged SSJ2 Gohan. In the beam duel, it's clear he's not trying all that hard, as he's smiling and laughing the whole time. What's more, he can sense ki, so he knows how strong Gohan was when he first transformed and beat the crap out of him, and he was fully confident in coming back, and finally, going out of universe for a moment, what's the point in having Vegeta distract Cell if Gohan was capable of beating him on his own?

Thoughts?

There's always that pesky "ki less than half" line.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm seriously considering putting Super Perfect Cell ahead of Enraged SSJ2 Gohan. In the beam duel, it's clear he's not trying all that hard, as he's smiling and laughing the whole time. What's more, he can sense ki, so he knows how strong Gohan was when he first transformed and beat the crap out of him, and he was fully confident in coming back, and finally, going out of universe for a moment, what's the point in having Vegeta distract Cell if Gohan was capable of beating him on his own?

Thoughts?

There's always that pesky "ki less than half" line.

That doesn't really affect this though. Cell wasn't even trying in the Kamehameha duel, and right before he unleashed his full power, Vegeta Big Bangs him in the side of the head. Cell also wasn't concerned about Gohan even before he broke his arm.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm seriously considering putting Super Perfect Cell ahead of Enraged SSJ2 Gohan. In the beam duel, it's clear he's not trying all that hard, as he's smiling and laughing the whole time. What's more, he can sense ki, so he knows how strong Gohan was when he first transformed and beat the crap out of him, and he was fully confident in coming back, and finally, going out of universe for a moment, what's the point in having Vegeta distract Cell if Gohan was capable of beating him on his own?

Thoughts?

I've got no problem with that. Cell has 3-5 feats on Gohan, who has none on him. To play the devil's advocate though, Gohan was the one used as a measuring stick in the Buu Saga, not Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm seriously considering putting Super Perfect Cell ahead of Enraged SSJ2 Gohan. In the beam duel, it's clear he's not trying all that hard, as he's smiling and laughing the whole time. What's more, he can sense ki, so he knows how strong Gohan was when he first transformed and beat the crap out of him, and he was fully confident in coming back, and finally, going out of universe for a moment, what's the point in having Vegeta distract Cell if Gohan was capable of beating him on his own?

Thoughts?

I've got no problem with that. Cell has 3-5 feats on Gohan, who has none on him. To play the devil's advocate though, Gohan was the one used as a measuring stick in the Buu Saga, not Cell.

Awesome.
Well, Cell was also never at full power after he came back. He toyed with Gohan during the beam struggle. Enraged SSJ2 Gohan could be above playing around Super Perfect Cell, and still be below Full Power Super Perfect Cell.

And I really like the idea of the overconfident villain being stronger and still losing due to underestimating his opponents. It's way better than the heroes getting really strong and thrashing the villain.

I wonder if Cell could pull off the power weighted state as Super Perfect Cell?

[RandomGuy96]

Well, Cell was also never at full power after he came back. He toyed with Gohan during the beam struggle. Enraged SSJ2 Gohan could be above playing around Super Perfect Cell, and still be below Full Power Super Perfect Cell.

And I really like the idea of the overconfident villain being stronger and still losing due to underestimating his opponents. It's way better than the heroes getting really strong and thrashing the villain.

Another out of universe thing to consider: why would Toriyama have Gohan get injured by a cheap shot if the desperation from the final beam struggle would've been there regardless of whether or not Gohan was at full power?

I wonder if Cell could pull off the power weighted state as Super Perfect Cell?

There's no real reason he wouldn't be able to. How useful it would be, on the other hand...

Cell Games related: how strong do you guys think Piccolo was at this time? I'm thinking that he was higher than I previously thought, since Trunks was shocked when Goku said that Piccolo couldn't beat Cell, and Piccolo was actually able to stand against the Cell Juniors. Yes, unlike Vegeta he was never shown getting in a hit, but it still strikes me as rather telling that Toriyama drew a cover that had Piccolo, Trunks, and Vegeta standing up while tired Goku and the humans were on the ground. On the other hand though, he must have been FAR below 50% Goku to know he was useless against Cell... right?

Raising Piccolo would basically force me to have East Kaioshin >= Cell Games Goku. I mostly Piccolo that low out of necessity (plus the implication that 50% Goku is far above him) so I could have Kaioshin < Grand Kaioshin and South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin = Mr. Buu without overrating Mr. Buu too much. I like having him at 80% of Kid Buu, like I have now, but considering that a lot of the fight was off-screen, Kid Buu has a better "fighting style", and the anime shows him actually landing a few more hits in what was presuambly the off screen segments in the manga, maybe 83% is fine too...

[Mjb1985]

I'm cool with Piccolo being close to 50% Goku if not for the Buu Saga.

I feel Ssj Kids > Piccolo and Kaioshin > Piccolo.

For that to happen ( I don't go by Ssj2 for Gohan ) I'm almost forced to lower Piccolo to make that work.

Piccolo being around Initial PC works imo.

[RandomGuy96]

50% Cell Games Goku level is where I have him now in the Buu Saga, but I don't buy SS Gohan > all Kaioshin like you do, and I don't have any particular preference for how strong the kids are. I'm wondering how Buu Saga Piccolo would stack up to a Cell Junior.

[Mjb1985]

I think there is a lot of wiggle room. This isn't the Freeza Saga and the Cell Juniors toying with Piccolo like Vegeta did with Goku.

Kaioshin vs Ssj Kids?

[RandomGuy96]

I don't really have a preference there either; to me the boys strength is entirely dependent on what level I feel is appropriate for Gotenks that day. Fitting, since the story itself doesn't care about their power outside of what they can produce with fusion.

Notably, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo are still standing after Cell orders the Juniors to kill everyone.

[Saiga]

To me that only proves that Piccolo is stronger than the humans and an exhausted Goku, which really proves jack shit. I think Boo arc Piccolo was only 25% of Cell Games Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Didn't you say earlier that you thought Buu Saga Piccolo was above a Cell Junior, because he didn't look that much weaker than them 7 years ago?

4 times weaker? Damn that's low! I think even Semi-Perfect Cell is decently above that.