Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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valfranx
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by valfranx » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:20 pm

Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.

"Out of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)? Cool: Goku “I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!"
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/

Gohan-type
This type is also called Ultimate Gohan. While his appearance hasn’t change very much from his normal state, his power surpasses even Super Saiya-jin 2. He’s a Saiya-jin who has achieved a super transformation different from Super Saiya-jin, which puts a large strain on one’s body.

Super Saiya-jin 3
As the Super Saiya-jin that can appropriately be called the strongest, the transformation of their outward appearance is the most intense of all: their eyebrows disappear and their hair becomes long. Apart from Goku, Gotenks can also transform into this!! Aside from the Kamehameha and his other techniques from his normal form, in the movies Goku displays a special attack called the Dragon Fist.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=13789

here indicates that goku had an increase in their zenkai, after he died. and as we know saiyan after death or near-death situations, return more powerful:
Defeat Buu! Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin. Thereupon, he meets with Buu's reincarnation, Uub. In order to raise Uub, who didn't know how to fight, he flew off.
vegeta and then confirms that Goku was holding back all this time, that was struggling with superbuu, fatbuu and kidbuu. Vegeta says that Goku was the only one who could beat kidbuu. that actually has some truth, even after resurrecting gohan, goten, trunks ... not brought them to the fight.
Human Vegeta.
Goku was the only one who could fight Buu. Vegeta completely abandoned his pride. He was then able to accept Goku's skill for the first time.
in anime / movies the same things:

Fake Super Warriors Illusions History They appeared inside Buu's brain. There were fakes of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. Characteristics Illusions made from Buu's memory. Their power is on par with their real counterparts, and even when defeated they immediately revive. When he saw them, Goku realized right away that they were fakes. Techniques They use the same techniques as their real counterparts. In particular, Goten and Trunks used Fusion to become Super Gotenks 3 right off the bat. Battles They fought with Goku and Vegeta, giving them a lot of trouble, but when some cake grabbed Buu's attention, the fakes all turned into cakes as well.
movie 13/12:
Vegeta and Goku are defeated one after the other. But Goten and Trunks become Super Gotenks 3, and overwhelm Hildegarn.


However, Hildergarn appears, having transformed amidst the smoke from the explosion. After defeating Gotenks in one blow, it takes out Gohan as well.
As Hildegarn's upper and lower portions merge, it is completely revived. It was downed after being hit with Super Gotenks 3's attacks, but its transformed form appears from its pre-transformed body as if it were shedding its skin.

Hildegarn (post-transformation)
The post-transformation Hildegarn is distinguished by its flashy colors, large horns, and wings. Its attack power and mobility have risen. It does not accept Hoi's orders.
"Take this, Dragon Fist!
I'm the strongest!!"
The super warrior formed through the fusion of Goku and Vegeta. He easily defeats Janenba, who not even Super Saiyan 3 was a match for. He is clearly the strongest hero in the universe.
The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.

bonus: to kill kidbuu, was necessary the energy of the whole universe:
Dragon Ball Z Super Battle Scenes: The Final Battle013
Separated into six acts, the final story section spans Dragon Ball Z episodes 269 to 291, covering Vegetto’s battle with Majin Buu; the fight to rescue the others inside Buu’s body; the battle in the Kaiōshin Realm with the original, pure-evil Buu; the formation of a last-ditch Genki-Dama with energy from the entire universe; Buu’s final destruction with the help of the Dragon Balls’ power; and the 28th Tenka’ichi Budōkai, where Goku sets his sights on Uub to train as his disciple.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/daizenshuu/daiz-10/

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by PerfectFreeza » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:28 pm

Anime and movies aren't made by Toriyama and the man himself considers them in an alternate timeline.Unless you want to believe Yamcha can beat Cell.
That interview?That part about the strongest wasn't Toriyama's answer.Look at the quoting marks properly.
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:36 pm

valfranx wrote:Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.
Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:31 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
People still can't accept that Goku isn't that special in the Boo saga. If you ignore fusion sure he's higher up, but once you layout all the characters he is like below tenth on my scale.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
People still can't accept that Goku isn't that special in the Boo saga. If you ignore fusion sure he's higher up, but once you layout all the characters he is like below tenth on my scale.
Goku is weak in Boo Arc(Manga). But 10th? Well..below 10th?

Vegetto
Buuhan
Buutenks
Buucolo
Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Boo
Fat Boo(Full power. Like super pissed. Right before he split.)
Goku
Pure Boo

I have no idea where Evil Boo goes.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:23 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
People still can't accept that Goku isn't that special in the Boo saga. If you ignore fusion sure he's higher up, but once you layout all the characters he is like below tenth on my scale.
Goku is weak in Boo Arc(Manga). But 10th? Well..below 10th?

Vegetto
Buuhan
Buutenks
Buucolo
Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Boo
Fat Boo(Full power. Like super pissed. Right before he split.)
Goku
Pure Boo

I have no idea where Evil Boo goes.
You left out Buff Buu and the second Buuccolo. And Pure Buu is arguably stronger than Goku as well, which would make Gray Buu stronger than Goku.
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:27 am

Yep. My chain:

1. Vegetto
2. Buuhan
3. Buutenks
4. Gohan
5. Gotenks
6. Buuoshin
7. Buuccolo
8. Buuccolo
9. Super Buu = Fat Buu (super duper mega pissed)
10. Evil Buu
11. Kid Buu
12. Goku
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:36 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
People still can't accept that Goku isn't that special in the Boo saga. If you ignore fusion sure he's higher up, but once you layout all the characters he is like below tenth on my scale.
Goku is weak in Boo Arc(Manga). But 10th? Well..below 10th?

Vegetto
Buuhan
Buutenks
Buucolo
Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Boo
Fat Boo(Full power. Like super pissed. Right before he split.)
Goku
Pure Boo

I have no idea where Evil Boo goes.
Goku is not weak in that time. For me him and Pure Boo are the second strongest unfused characters in Boo´s arc.

I think several people here are still using fused characters on purpose to discredit Kakarotto. I think it is better to separate things ( like dbzfan did ). If we keep talking about fused characters, Goku is part of Vegetto and he is the strongest of all by far.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:51 am

MDSTSSJ wrote: Goku is not weak in that time. For me him and Pure Boo are the second strongest unfused characters in Boo´s arc.

I think several people here are still using fused characters on purpose to discredit Kakarotto. I think it is better to separate things ( like dbzfan did ). If we keep talking about fused characters, Goku is part of Vegetto and he is the strongest of all by far.
Second strongest unfused character still makes him the 10th or 11th strongest character in the Arc.

I don't see why you consider people saying that Goku isn't that strong to be discrediting him. Aside for a volume or so in the Buu Arc, Goku hasn't been the strongest guy since the death of Freeza. What's more, Goku wanted his sons to surpass him, and they did. Why would saying this be discrediting Goku, when it's what he wanted?

The fact is, Goku is nowhere near as strong as the heavyweights of the Buu Arc. And he doesn't have to be. His character isn't lessened by not being the strongest. (It's lessened by him being an absolute idiot in this arc, but that topic's been done to death.)
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:11 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Second strongest unfused character still makes him the 10th or 11th strongest character in the Arc.

I don't see why you consider people saying that Goku isn't that strong to be discrediting him. Aside for a volume or so in the Buu Arc, Goku hasn't been the strongest guy since the death of Freeza. What's more, Goku wanted his sons to surpass him, and they did. Why would saying this be discrediting Goku, when it's what he wanted?

The fact is, Goku is nowhere near as strong as the heavyweights of the Buu Arc. And he doesn't have to be. His character isn't lessened by not being the strongest. (It's lessened by him being an absolute idiot in this arc, but that topic's been done to death.)
Yes, he want that but unfortunately he continues training his ass to become stronger. Yes, in front of the fused characters, he has no chance!

There are many post around here that give the impression of wanting to discredit Goku at all times. Maybe I'm wrong and misunderstood the opinions! :thumbup:

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:17 am

MDSTSSJ wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Second strongest unfused character still makes him the 10th or 11th strongest character in the Arc.

I don't see why you consider people saying that Goku isn't that strong to be discrediting him. Aside for a volume or so in the Buu Arc, Goku hasn't been the strongest guy since the death of Freeza. What's more, Goku wanted his sons to surpass him, and they did. Why would saying this be discrediting Goku, when it's what he wanted?

The fact is, Goku is nowhere near as strong as the heavyweights of the Buu Arc. And he doesn't have to be. His character isn't lessened by not being the strongest. (It's lessened by him being an absolute idiot in this arc, but that topic's been done to death.)
Yes, he want that but unfortunately he continues training his ass to become stronger. Yes, in front of the fused characters, he has no chance!

There are many post around here that give the impression of wanting to discredit Goku at all times. Maybe I'm wrong and misunderstood the opinions! :thumbup:
Why would I want to discredit Goku? I like him. He is my second if not tied for favourite character.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:25 am

dbzfan7 wrote:Why would I want to discredit Goku? I like him. He is my second if not tied for favourite character.
Fair enough. I misunderstood some opinions!! My bad!!

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Saiyan Prince Vegeta » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:48 am

With BoG and SSJG yes, without I would say no. I see the gains coming up to the end of the manga being about the same as the ones between the Cell and Boo arcs, just add an extra 3 years at the same rate of growth. I don't believe in a limit, though I do believe they have basically reached a plateau, but with some sort of different training, or just a sparring partner they could go beyond it. If Goku would've been sparring with somebody around his level between the Cell and Boo arcs I'm sure he would have improved much more than he did.

So yeah, long story short, they have no limit but they make small gains that are only really noticeable after a few years.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Draken » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:51 am

No one wants to discredit Goku. We're just tired of the bullshit overly crediting Goku.

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:03 am

Draken wrote:No one wants to discredit Goku. We're just tired of the bullshit overly crediting Goku.
Exactly my thoughts on the subject.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:58 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Still, the manga makes it clear that U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.
People still can't accept that Goku isn't that special in the Boo saga. If you ignore fusion sure he's higher up, but once you layout all the characters he is like below tenth on my scale.
Goku is weak in Boo Arc(Manga). But 10th? Well..below 10th?

Vegetto
Buuhan
Buutenks
Buucolo
Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Boo
Fat Boo(Full power. Like super pissed. Right before he split.)
Goku
Pure Boo

I have no idea where Evil Boo goes.

It doesn't matter how pissed off Fat boo is. Fat boo is Fat boo no matter what level he is fighting at. The fact of the matter is is that Goku is stronger than Fat boo and had to go all out against Pure boo who he was toe to toe with. Goku being below Fat boo contradicts what he stated about being able to beat him. Sure none of them were going all out at the time, but Goku made damn well sure that he was stronger all along when he confessed.
Evil boo > Goku >= Pure boo > Fat boo > Pure evil boo > good boo.

As for your idea on where "Evil boo" goes, I just gave it to you. :wave:

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Saiga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:07 am

valfranx wrote:Daizenshuu even in the session dedicated to manga, Akira put goku as the strongest character, 3 times. guides in the movies / anime, goku was placed with the strongest 3 times. while gohan is said only that he overcame gotenks and powers of ssj2, nothing about ssj3.

"Out of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)? Cool: Goku “I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!"
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
This is actually wrong. "I think it's Goku" is the quote from Toriyama. The line "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" is not Toriyama's quote, it was put there after the fact. All Toriyama is saying is that Goku is the most cool of all his characters.
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:54 am

Pure evil boo
Which was is that again? IEvil Boo = Gray. Pure evil =...?

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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:00 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Pure evil boo
Which was is that again? IEvil Boo = Gray. Pure evil =...?
Pure Evil Buu is Gray Buu.
Evil Buu is Super Buu.
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Re: Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:33 pm

The most consistent, original, and mostly-official naming scheme we have for the different forms of Majin Boo:

Majin Boo ("Fat"/"Innocent"/Good"): The chubby Boo whom SSj3 Goku fought and SSj Gotenks was intended to fight. The same terms are often applied to him after his split and possibly permanent loss of power.
Majin Boo ("Pure Evil"): The gray-colored, sickly-looking thin Boo who emerged from, defeated, and ate the fat one. Named as such because he's no more than a physical embodiment of Boo's evil.
Majin Boo ("Evil"): The pink-again, tall, muscular form Boo took after eating his fat self. Named because although he's made up of the same "parts" as Fat Boo, his evil side is now in control.
Majin Boo ("Pure"): The small and crazy Majin Boo whom Goku and Vegeta fought and who was finally eradicated by the Spirit Bomb. Named this because he's Boo in his 100% unaltered, original form, with no absorptions or other outer or inner influences affecting his form or power.
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