Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[dbzfan7]

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

People just can't stand Goku isn't that special in the Boo arc and when including all forms from all characters he is like mid tier or less.

[RandomGuy96]

When did he do that?

Elder Kaioshin recommends using Vegetto to crush Kid Buu. Goku says that it's not fair to do that, because:

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“

Buu's "merged form" is Super Buu. Their "merged form" is Vegetto. He's comparing Vegetto fighting Kid Buu to Super Buu fighting them by saying they must not use Vegetto because Buu is not "using" Super Buu.

I don't get how it's not fair if the Buu they WERE willing to use fusion against was weaker than this one.

[Axiom]

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

When did he do that?

Never. I own the Manga now, would you like me to post it?

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

People just can't stand Goku isn't that special in the Boo arc and when including all forms from all characters he is like mid tier or less.

Says the guy who never read it. The answer has been provided for you, and it doesn't rely on stupid fan theories to explain the story. Just saying.

[dbzfan7]

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

People just can't stand Goku isn't that special in the Boo arc and when including all forms from all characters he is like mid tier or less.

Says the guy who never read it. The answer has been provided for you, and it doesn't rely on stupid fan theories to explain the story. Just saying.

Yes. that's why pretty much everyone disagree's with you. We all must be wrong. Seriously I know where this thread is going to go.

[RandomGuy96]

Says the guy who never read it. The answer has been provided for you, and it doesn't rely on stupid fan theories to explain the story. Just saying.

Yeah, you're right. Goku was nice enough to tell us:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

(i.e. he'll need fusion if he can't revert him to Fat Buu)

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

When did he do that?

Never. I own the Manga now, would you like me to post it?

How can you post the lack of a quote? Unless you're posting the whole manga? Good luck with that

[Draken]

Goku himself outright said that Super Buu was stronger many times. He even compared Super Buu fighting them to Vegetto/Gogeta fighting Kid Buu.

People just can't stand Goku isn't that special in the Boo arc and when including all forms from all characters he is like mid tier or less.

Says the guy who never read it. The answer has been provided for you, and it doesn't rely on stupid fan theories to explain the story. Just saying.

Fat Buu : I could have beaten him if I actually tried.
Super Buu : FUCK VEGETA GET OVER HERE NOW WE NEED TO FUSE WE'RE SO FKED OMG IF WE LEAVE HIS BODY RIGHT NOW WE'RE DEAD WHY YOU CRUSH THE EARRINGS YOU MOTHER FUCKER???
Buff Buu : VEGETA HE'S GETTING EVEN STRONGER.
Pure Buu : PSHT Earrings suck dick leggo bitch 1v1

[Axiom]

Yes. that's why pretty much everyone disagree's with you. We all must be wrong. Seriously I know where this thread is going to go.

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

How can you post the lack of a quote? Unless you're posting the whole manga? Good luck with that

Sure thing

[valfranx]

herms translations:


http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... h_f001.jpg

Describes the pure Boo as “powered up” (in comparison to what form isn’t specified). From DB Forever, a manga guidebook.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... h_f002.jpg

Says Goku has “The highest respect towards the strongest enemy!” From DB Foreve

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... h_f003.jpg

Says Vegetto won’t let “the mightiest majin” lay a finger on him. From DB Forever. http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... h_f004.jpg

Says Boo was weakened by having his absorptions undone. From DB Forever. http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... _qtzns.jpg

Says Goku is excited about a battle with the existence of the entire universe on the line, and that the pure Boo comes to the Kaioshin Realm seeking strong opponents.

From DB Forever.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... hinbuu.jpg

Says Boo absorbed the South Kaioshin’s power and physique, evolving a powerful body, though it’s not clear how this changed his personality. From DBZ Son Goku Densetsu, an anime guidebook.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... vsgoku.jpg

Says Gohan-absorbed Boo is so powerful that on his own Goku is no match even as a Super Saiyan 3. From DBZ Son Goku Densetsu. http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... _pjwxq.jpg

Says Boo became calmer and easier to control after absorbing Dai-Kaioshin. He loves to eat and has childlike innocence, but becomes unstoppable when angry. From DBZ Son Goku Densetsu.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... d70f735243...

Says Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 2. From the third TV Animation daizenshuu.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... b7ac4aa08b...

Refers to Super Saiyan 3 as “the Super Saiyan that can appropriately be called strongest”. From the third TV Animation daizenshuu.


http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... 3510229345...

Says that Gohan-absorbed Boo’s strength is such that he can appropriately be called “the mightiest majin”. He’s powered up even more than he was with Gotenks, without any time limit before he powers down, and combines Gotenks’ techniques, Piccolo’s brains, and Gohan’s power. From the website of one of the 3D fighting games (the Sparking!/Budokai Tenkaichi series, I think).


http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... 57417fe5dd

... Refers to Gohan as having “fantastic power surpassing even Super Saiyan 3” following the Elder Kaioshin’s power-up. From (I think) DB Ultimate Battle Collection Round 02, an anime guidebook

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... e231ccc817...


The last portion of Toriyama’s interview in Daizenshuu 2, a manga guidebook. I have no clue what part of this was considered relevant to the Boo strength debate. Gohan as an unsuitable main character? It being unfair for everyone to team up against Boo? Fortunately I already translated the whole thing for Kanzentai: Q: So it's like Goku's line at the end of the battle with Majin Buu. A: That's right. He said "You did well all on your own". I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... Z47ccb.jpg

Describes the pure Boo as having the smallest and most childlike body out of all the Boos, but also the “most formidable power and ability”. From (I think) DB Ultimate Battle Collection Round 02.

[dbzfan7]

Yes. that's why pretty much everyone disagree's with you. We all must be wrong. Seriously I know where this thread is going to go.

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

Great attitude buddy. Once you result to that you already have lost. If you really want to believe that go ahead. The only time Goku even remotely close to strongest is in the anime where all logic got fucked up.

[Dr. Machismo]

Yes. that's why pretty much everyone disagree's with you. We all must be wrong. Seriously I know where this thread is going to go.

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

I smell a jimmy rustler. Guidebooks say that Gohan is the strongest, and that's supported in the manga.

[Axiom]

Yes. that's why pretty much everyone disagree's with you. We all must be wrong. Seriously I know where this thread is going to go.

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

I smell a jimmy rustler. Guidebooks say that Gohan is the strongest, and that's supported in the manga.

Obvious didn't read the thread, but hold please while I copy over some of the manga.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

Haven't you learned your lesson? Please adjust your attitude.

That goes for everyone, too. One person acting like a jerk doesn't require being a jerk back to them. There's no need to make snippy comments or egg them on.

[Dr. Machismo]

So, there's really nothing to support that Goku is stronger than Gohan or Gotenks at the end of the series. MAYBE he got stronger RIGHT at the end seeing it was 10 years after Buu, but there's nothing to support that.

Goku did say that he was weaker than the initial Super Buu, whom Gohan and Gotenks dominated. That pretty much confirms that Goku wasn't stronger than them.

[RandomGuy96]

Toriyama said that Goku at the very end of the series is weaker than Goku in BOG, and he's still much weaker than Gohan there. So no, Goku was never the strongest; he hasn't been the strongest since Super Buu formed, possibly earlier if you believe Goku himself.

[Axiom]

Yeah, and it isn't the first time the majority has been blatantly wrong. The Guidebooks, the Manga and the Anime all pretty much state Goku is the strongest and I'm in denial? Go back to reading about SS11 Gohan or whatever you want to wank off about.

Haven't you learned your lesson? Please adjust your attitude.

That goes for everyone, too. One person acting like a jerk doesn't require being a jerk back to them. There's no need to make snippy comments or egg them on.

Right, now you should act tough on everyone after you specifically singled me out, for what was it, like 3 weeks? And then you had the audacity to post about it on your twitter. Please, the time to pretend to be pleasant is over.

Toriyama said that Goku at the very end of the series is weaker than Goku in BOG, and he's still much weaker than Gohan there. So no, Goku was never the strongest; he hasn't been the strongest since Super Buu formed, possibly earlier if you believe Goku himself.

I'm working on it, give me a few more minutes.

[Kaboom]

Well, the trends pretty heavily point to Goku being at least moderately weaker than Gotenks and Gohan. But there's a few bits here and there, both in the manga and guidebooks which would suggest Goku is the strongest (non-Fusion) hero instead.

Frankly, if Toriyama himself came out and said something like, "to be honest, I changed my mind on some things late in the story, and after that I intended for Goku to really be the strongest in the end," then it could probably be made to work with a little hand-waving.

[dbzfan7]

Toriyama said that Goku at the very end of the series is weaker than Goku in BOG, and he's still much weaker than Gohan there. So no, Goku was never the strongest; he hasn't been the strongest since Super Buu formed, possibly earlier if you believe Goku himself.

Then there's the Gohan has power surpassing Pure Saiyans listed on the Battle of Gods website. This of course excludes SSJ God.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, the trends pretty heavily point to Goku being at least moderately weaker than Goku and Gohan. But there's a few bits here and there, both in the manga and guidebooks which would suggest Goku is the strongest (non-Fusion) hero instead.

Frankly, if Toriyama himself came out and said something like, "to be honest, I changed my mind on some things late in the story, and after that I intended for Goku to really be the strongest in the end," then it could probably be made to work with a little hand-waving.

I think you mean Goku being weaker than Gotenks and Gohan. Goku being weaker than himself is a paradox reserved for GT

[Kaboom]

Right, now you should act tough on everyone after you specifically singled me out, for what was it, like 3 weeks? And then you had the audacity to post about it on your twitter. Please, the time to pretend to be pleasant is over.

Uh, let's make a short list here...

• 1) No, the comment to everyone else was warranted and fair, and is something which (sadly) happens pretty often. Your bad attitude is the prime offender, but other people goading you isn't appropriate either.
  
  2) You were banned for openly flaming and goading other members. You apparently didn't learn your lesson.
  
  3) I looked up what I posted about on Twitter that day, and while I don't owe you any explanation, I will choose to say that it wasn't about you specifically. You are not a victim of bias or singling out. I came, I saw shenanigans, I took action.
  
  4) The time to be pleasant (or at least pretend to be) is always. Take a look at the list of rules which you agreed to upon signing up for this forum, #4 in particular. If you continue to act hostile towards your peers, then further warnings and bans will happen. Consider this explanation and verbal warning one more bonus freebie.

I think you mean Goku being weaker than Gotenks and Gohan. Goku being weaker than himself is a paradox reserved for GT

...Yes. Yes, I did. Thanks.