Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[TheGmGoken]

Everyone maxed out in BoG´s time? Another Toriyama contradiction or half Saiyans have more dormant power than pure Saiyans is bullshit!

You do know they slacked off right? So by maxed he. He most likely mean at their STRONGEST. For all we know Goku could have gotten slightly weaker before OOB and then got stronger aft er training with Oob. But we NEVER saw what happen.

Saiyans stay in their prime longer though.

I have an idea that dying and coming back to life speeds up your aging process faster. Goku was dead for 8 years(Saiyan arc and Cell Arc/Early Boo). So...he rapidly aged faster as he came back to life. That's just my opinion. Even through I have no excuse for Vegeta. OVer stressing his body with Gravity training?

[Dr. Machismo]

I have an idea that dying and coming back to life speeds up your aging process faster. Goku was dead for 8 years(Saiyan arc and Cell Arc/Early Boo). So...he rapidly aged faster as he came back to life. That's just my opinion. Even through I have no excuse for Vegeta. OVer stressing his body with Gravity training?

No evidence on that though. How do we know that Goku and Vegeta aged faster? They still look like they're in their primes at the end of the series, as noted by Bulma.

[Kaboom]

Given the overall comment of Toriyama's "point in the series when everyone was at their maximum" quote, after some thought I take it to mean just that he placed it during the point in the series when everyone was strongest, i.e. the Majin Boo arc era. As opposed to after the Cell arc where we know everyone was about to get a whole lot stronger still, or as opposed to after the series' epilogue, when some of the characters' age might start working against their improvement.

It doesn't have to mean the literal and rather extreme interpretation of "everyone in the film is as strong as they're ever going to get, and no further self-improvement is possible."

[MDSTSSJ]

For all we know Goku could have gotten slightly weaker before OOB and then got stronger aft er training with Oob. But we NEVER saw what happen.

That´s imposible! After killing Boo, Goku continues his training ( he say that ) , we never seen Kakarotto stop his trainings, never.

Goku training and sparring with Oob? Huge power gains for Kakarotto.

[TheGmGoken]

For all we know Goku could have gotten slightly weaker before OOB and then got stronger aft er training with Oob. But we NEVER saw what happen.

That´s imposible! After killing Boo, Goku continues his training ( he say that ) , we never seen Kakarotto stop his trainings, never.

Goku training and sparring with Oob? Huge power gains for Kakarotto.

Not to be rude. But did you read my comment? I never said he stop training. I said he could have gotten slightly weaker. This is due to the fact he doesn't have any good ways of training. Other world got easy. So he might have gotten slightly weaker. Also did I not say Goku and Oob got stronger but we never got to see it.

No evidence on that though. How do we know that Goku and Vegeta aged faster? They still look like they're in their primes at the end of the series, as noted by Bulma.

Do you say no evidence for everything? It's just an idea. That's why I said it's possible that they did indeed age faster than normal because of that quote. Not on the outside. Just on the inside. Also Akira Toriyama said that quote after he drew the manga like 20 years ago. It's possible that now he would make Goku and Vegeta appear/look older had he drew it now. Plus Goku did kinda of look older than normal at the end of the series.

Anime Comparison:

Spoiler:

and

Spoiler:

Manga:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[MDSTSSJ]

Not to be rude. But did you read my comment? I never said he stop training. I said he could have gotten slightly weaker. This is due to the fact he doesn't have any good ways of training. Other world got easy. So he might have gotten slightly weaker. Also did I not say Goku and Oob got stronger but we never got to see it.

No problem Goken, we are talking here

Yes I read you. Gotten slightly weaker no make sense because Goku is always training; even training on Earth might get decent gains on those 10 years.

[Draken]

For all we know Goku could have gotten slightly weaker before OOB and then got stronger aft er training with Oob. But we NEVER saw what happen.

That´s imposible! After killing Boo, Goku continues his training ( he say that ) , we never seen Kakarotto stop his trainings, never.

Goku training and sparring with Oob? Huge power gains for Kakarotto.

Did you not read my post? Training =/= get stronger. Just because you train doesn't mean you continually get better 24/7.

[TheGmGoken]

Gotten slightly weaker no make sense because Goku is always training; even training on Earth might get decent gains on those 10 years

Earth training became useless ever since Cell came. Even more useless in the Boo Arc. It's now supernatural training. Which Earth doesn't provide. Oob is an expcetion. The real question is why Vegeta and Gokui didn't train together and become sparring partners.

[Axiom]

1st clue - Gohan being mistaken for Goku. Gohan powered up so much, it's thought that he could be Goku, which wouldn't make sense if Goku was many times weaker as implied by people on this forum.


2nd clue - Gohan is apparently only a little stronger than Gotenks, but a comparison to Goku isn't mentioned here. Why? (because he's stronger)


3rd clue - Buu absorbs Gotenks over Gohan because he wants the stronger opponent to fight. (later on he picks Gohan over Goku, hmmm)


4th clue - The supreme Kai doesn't think that Goku AND Gohan are strong enough to take on Buu together. Again, if the Gap between them was so vast and Goku so weak, why did he mention them both and no specifically Goku? In Herms translation, It's implied that "even WITH Gohan's help" (and not the other way around) Goku wouldn't be able to beat him.


5th clue - Goku powering down in front of Buu, implying he was no threat to him in his current state. Notice Buu resorts to absorbing Gohan over Goku


6th clue - according to this, Goku wasn't aware that the Fatbuu was located inside Buu's body, meaning Herms translation is incorrect. Goku planned on fighting SuperBuu himself.


7th clue - Vegeta outright states that no one but Goku is a match for this Buu


8th clue - Vegeta totally mancrushing on Goku's power (no mention of Gotenks or Gohan since their last appearance)


9th clue - Goku suggesting both Gohan AND Gotenks help may be needed, implying 2 things. 1. This Buu is stronger than SuperBuu, and 2. Gohan's help alone may have not been enough.


10th clue - End of Z comments on Goku's power. Vegeta doesn't believe that anyone could be a match for Goku, implying that he is stronger than everyone (this includes Gohan and Gotenks)


11th Clue -Goku's excitment in finding Uub and training with him. Goku wants to fight him again more than anything (the next panel comments on how happy Goku is to find someone else so strong) Of course we know Vegeta is strong too but why is Goku more excited to fight Uub? Because he's potentially stronger (And this also applies to Gohan and Gotenks)

[MDSTSSJ]

Just because you train doesn't mean you continually get better 24/7.

What? I don´t get it. We are talking about Dragon Ball?

In real life, the more you train, you become better!!

" I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times "

[Axiom]

I think we are done here.

[TheGmGoken]

1st clue - Gohan being mistaken for Goku. Gohan powered up so much, it's thought that he could be Goku, which wouldn't make sense if Goku was many times weaker as implied by people on this forum.

Last time they sensed Goku he was a SSJ3 and the strongest they sensed that's a Hero. Gohan had slacked off and was weak. Plus he was wearing his dad's colors. So they easily thought it was Goku who gotten stronger and returning as he does that in every arc before.

2nd clue - Gohan is apparently only a little stronger than Gotenks, but a comparison to Goku isn't mentioned here. Why?

Goku wasn't there and wasn't the strongest at the time. Future Trunks and Gohan never got compared. Does that mean Trunks > Gohan?

3rd clue - Buu absorbs Gotenks over Gohan because he wants the stronger opponent to fight. (later on he picks Gohan over Goku, hmmm)

He takes Gohan over Goku because he played Goku like a fool. Goku was acting like Boo could't take Gohan away. He was always being cocky. Also Goku did say "Gohan can take you now.". He didn't say He could take him.

The supreme Kai doesn't think that Goku AND Gohan are strong enough to take on Buu together. Again, if the Gap between them was so vast and Goku so weak, why did he mention them both and no specifically Goku? In Herms translation, It's implied that "even WITH Gohan's help" (and not the other way around) Goku wouldn't be able to beat him.

Cause he was talkng about Both of them. Not just Goku.

Your 5th clue is the same as the 3rd one. So just read Clue 3 responds.

Goku wasn't aware that the Fatbuu was located inside Buu's body, meaning Herms translation is incorrect. Goku planned on fighting SuperBuu himself.

7th clue - Vegeta outright states that no one but Goku is a match for this Buu

That's cause of Goku's fighting skill/gift. Also unlike the others Goku has experince and fight to test his limits

8th clue - Vegeta totally mancrushing on Goku's power (no mention of Gotenks or Gohan since their last appearance)

He does tis all the time. He idin't even do it for SSJ2 Kid Gohan but he was jealous of FFPSSJ Goku

9th clue - Goku suggesting both Gohan AND Gotenks help may be needed, implying 2 things. 1. This Buu is stronger than SuperBuu, and 2. Gohan's help alone may have not been enough.

Pure Boo being stronger than Super Boo. *sigh* Not this again. Notice how Goku speaks when Pure Boo appears. Goku said Super Boo and Buff Boo was strong. But didn't really say much of Pure Boo.

End of Z comments on Goku's power. Vegeta doesn't believe that anyone could be a match for Goku, implying that he is stronger than everyone (this includes Gohan and Gotenks)

Unless it's Vegeta himself. Vegeta doesn't think anyone can beat Goku.

11th Clue -Goku's excitment in finding Uub and training with him. Goku wants to fight him again more than anything (the next panel comments on how happy Goku is to find someone else so strong) Of course we know Vegeta is strong too but why is Goku more excited to fight Uub? Because he's potentially stronger (And this also applies to Gohan and Gotenks)

Goku wants to train someone and get stronger to give him a challenge and for someone to take his place. As Goku always wanted that. He knows Gohan and Gotenks don't want this.

I think we are done here.

It doesn't matter what you think!

[Draken]

Just because you train doesn't mean you continually get better 24/7.

What? I don´t get it. We are talking about Dragon Ball?

In real life, the more you train, you become better!!

" I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times "

Really? Do you expect to be a 90 year old man training 24/7 and being stronger than you were at 30 years old training 12/7?

Goku wasn't aware that the Fatbuu was located inside Buu's body, meaning Herms translation is incorrect. Goku planned on fighting SuperBuu himself.

7th clue - Vegeta outright states that no one but Goku is a match for this Buu

That's cause of Goku's fighting skill/gift. Also unlike the others Goku has experince and fight to test his limits

Ima just add on to this.

Goten was dead.
Trunks was dead.
Gohan was dead.
Fuck man even Vegeta was dead.

I thought it was completely blatantly obvious Vegeta was talking solely between Vegeta + Goku and their never-ending rivalry.

Unless you're using this quote to say Goku > Vegetto, Buuhan, Buutenks, etc etc.

In which case SMFH.

[Axiom]

1st clue - Gohan being mistaken for Goku. Gohan powered up so much, it's thought that he could be Goku, which wouldn't make sense if Goku was many times weaker as implied by people on this forum.

Last time they sensed Goku he was a SSJ3 and the strongest they sensed that's a Hero. Gohan had slacked off and was weak. Plus he was wearing his dad's colors. So they easily thought it was Goku who gotten stronger and returning as he does that in every arc before.

Huh? It's obvious tha Gohan is within the realm of Goku's power -not the other way around.

2nd clue - Gohan is apparently only a little stronger than Gotenks, but a comparison to Goku isn't mentioned here. Why?

Goku wasn't there and wasn't the strongest at the time. Future Trunks and Gohan never got compared. Does that mean Trunks > Gohan?

What? You previously stated that Goku was the strongest character, but notice there is no comparison to his strength (ever)

3rd clue - Buu absorbs Gotenks over Gohan because he wants the stronger opponent to fight. (later on he picks Gohan over Goku, hmmm)

He takes Gohan over Goku because he played Goku like a fool. Goku was acting like Boo could't take Gohan away. He was always being cocky. Also Goku did say "Gohan can take you now.". He didn't say He could take him.

Uh huh...so what he said before was a lie?

The supreme Kai doesn't think that Goku AND Gohan are strong enough to take on Buu together. Again, if the Gap between them was so vast and Goku so weak, why did he mention them both and no specifically Goku? In Herms translation, It's implied that "even WITH Gohan's help" (and not the other way around) Goku wouldn't be able to beat him.

Cause he was talkng about Both of them. Not just Goku.
Again, he tells the Kibito that he is far too weak and he'd get in the way - nothing of the sort is implied. In fact, the only objection to Goku fighting thus far has been the fact that he wasn't among the living.

Your 5th clue is the same as the 3rd one. So just read Clue 3 responds.
Huh?

Goku wasn't aware that the Fatbuu was located inside Buu's body, meaning Herms translation is incorrect. Goku planned on fighting SuperBuu himself.

7th clue - Vegeta outright states that no one but Goku is a match for this Buu

That's cause of Goku's fighting skill/gift. Also unlike the others Goku has experince and fight to test his limits
What does that have to do with power?

8th clue - Vegeta totally mancrushing on Goku's power (no mention of Gotenks or Gohan since their last appearance)

He does tis all the time. He idin't even do it for SSJ2 Kid Gohan but he was jealous of FFPSSJ Goku
He'll begrudgingly admit when someone is the strongest, and here he is, crushing over Goku - NOT Gohan or Gotenks.

9th clue - Goku suggesting both Gohan AND Gotenks help may be needed, implying 2 things. 1. This Buu is stronger than SuperBuu, and 2. Gohan's help alone may have not been enough.

Pure Boo being stronger than Super Boo. *sigh* Not this again. Notice how Goku speaks when Pure Boo appears. Goku said Super Boo and Buff Boo was strong. But didn't really say much of Pure Boo.
Yes he did - he commented on how much more powerful he was becoming, and THEN the Supreme Kai comments on it too. In fact, what sense does it make for the Supreme Kai to be MORE afraid of a weaker Buu (KiddBuu) over a supposedly stronger form (SuperBuu, "BuffBuu")

End of Z comments on Goku's power. Vegeta doesn't believe that anyone could be a match for Goku, implying that he is stronger than everyone (this includes Gohan and Gotenks)

Unless it's Vegeta himself. Vegeta doesn't think anyone can beat Goku.

11th Clue -Goku's excitment in finding Uub and training with him. Goku wants to fight him again more than anything (the next panel comments on how happy Goku is to find someone else so strong) Of course we know Vegeta is strong too but why is Goku more excited to fight Uub? Because he's potentially stronger (And this also applies to Gohan and Gotenks)

Goku wants to train someone and get stronger to give him a challenge and for someone to take his place. As Goku always wanted that. He knows Gohan and Gotenks don't want this.

It has nothing to do with what they want - the last panel specifically states it's not about saving the world.

I think we are done here.

You're done.
It doesn't matter what you think! http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/u ... e-rock.jpg

[Axiom]

Just because you train doesn't mean you continually get better 24/7.

What? I don´t get it. We are talking about Dragon Ball?

In real life, the more you train, you become better!!

" I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times "

Really? Do you expect to be a 90 year old man training 24/7 and being stronger than you were at 30 years old training 12/7?

Goku wasn't aware that the Fatbuu was located inside Buu's body, meaning Herms translation is incorrect. Goku planned on fighting SuperBuu himself.

7th clue - Vegeta outright states that no one but Goku is a match for this Buu

That's cause of Goku's fighting skill/gift. Also unlike the others Goku has experince and fight to test his limits

Ima just add on to this.

Goten was dead.
Trunks was dead.
Gohan was dead.
Fuck man even Vegeta was dead.

I thought it was completely blatantly obvious Vegeta was talking solely between Vegeta + Goku and their never-ending rivalry.

Unless you're using this quote to say Goku > Vegetto, Buuhan, Buutenks, etc etc.

In which case SMFH.

Game over son. I used the Manga to prove you wrong, Should we move on to the anime too?

[Draken]

No you didn't. You didn't prove shit besides your own conjecture and speculation. I also like how you completely avoid my point and just flout around like a little kid "nope too late I already proved you wrong <3 .

Do we really have to bring back the never-ending barrage of Strength Checker quotes again...?

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Speaks for it fucking self. I don't understand why the debate doesn't end here.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Let's see. Gohan > Super Buu. Agreed? Good. Gotenks >=< Super Buu. Agreed? Good. Gotenks absorbed Super Buu > Gohan. Agreed? Good. Gotenks absorbed Super Buu > Goku. Agreed? Good.

How does that prove anything whatsoever that Goku > Gohan again? (pointing to your previous "proof")

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

Goku and Vegeta need fusion to beat Super Buu. Gotenks and Gohan do not.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

"We did it!" What so their goal this entire time was to make Buu stronger than he ever was? I don't fucking think so.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.3
Context: as Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to decide who fights Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-those dimwits! Th-they intend to fight one at a time?! They’re not gonna fight together?!”

They were even willing to fight together for Super Buu. But now that Buu is stronger and can obviously beat them up they'll go 1 by 1 now right?

[Mjb1985]

Goku can't touch Gohan or Gotenks. Goku is just an individual. It's not fair to compare him to a fusion power that's just wrong.

[Draken]

Goku can't touch Gohan or Gotenks. Goku is just an individual. It's not fair to compare him to a fusion power that's just wrong.

Gohan ain't no fusion.

[Mjb1985]

Gohan is a freak of nature who's power exceeds even a Super Saiyan 3 Fusion. If its not fair to compare Goku to a fusion, then it's definitely not fair to compare him to hax Gohan.

[Draken]

Gohan is a freak of nature who's power exceeds even a Super Saiyan 3 Fusion. If its not fair to compare Goku to a fusion, then it's definitely not fair to compare him to hax Gohan.

He just had OP potential, even if Rou Kaioshin's ritual wasn't super haxed and just brought him to his full potential, it's still >> Goku's potential.