Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually, I think Buu powered up again after Vegeta shot a hole in him. That's when he got really, really pissed, and retaliated with that huge explosion. This is the Buu that, IMO, fought Goku, the one that completely crushed Vegeta while taking no damage.

Well, the problem I have with that is this:

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P1.2-4, P2.5
Context: after Boo beats Dabra
Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
Trunks: “…What the…!? This time I feel an incredible ki over there too…What’s going on?...”
[ ]
Goku (talking to Vegeta): “…It changed into an outrageous ki…So Majin Boo really isn’t anyone ordinary after all…This ain’t no time to be doing this kinda thing…! We’re the ones who let this monster out…”

Chapter: 464 (DBZ 270), P11.6
Context: after Vegeta insults Boo and he lets steam out of his head
Kuririn: “Hey…That monstrous bastard’s ki got even huger.”

In both previous instances, a massive rise in Majin Buu's ki was noted. Not in this one. It just looked like he got pissed and used an attack (that failed to one-shot Vegeta I might add). This tells me that there probably wasn't an increase.

Plus, from a Doylist perspective it's kind of silly to have Buu start out stronger than Vegeta, then power up to a level way above Vegeta, then just power up again.

I don't have a problem with it. It never specifically says that Buu powered up before he split, but you and I go with that. I think it makes more sense to make Buu's anger boosts consistent, rather than explaining how he didn't get one here, but he got one later, even though it isn't stated that he did. It's easier, and to me makes more sense to just assume that he just powers up when he gets mad. Also, after already specifically stating twice in the last couple of chapters that Buu kept powering up, is it really necessary for Toriyama to specifically state so again?

[RandomGuy96]

But his supposed third power up against Vegeta also lacked a very distinctive sign of when he powers up: the steam coming out of his head. When Dabra insulted him, when Vegeta insulted him, when Mr. Satan was shot, steam always came out. Not when Vegeta shot a hole in him. Here he just used a Super Explosive Wave. No real sign of a power up.

[Kamiccolo9]

But his supposed third power up against Vegeta also lacked a very distinctive sign of when he powers up: the steam coming out of his head. When Dabra insulted him, when Vegeta insulted him, when Mr. Satan was shot, steam always came out. Not when Vegeta shot a hole in him. Here he just used a Super Explosive Wave. No real sign of a power up.

See, though, I consider the anger to be the sign of the power up, not the steam. Later on, when Vegeta stops Buu from going after Piccolo and the kids, Buu starts steaming. Yet I don't think he powered up here, since he didn't do anything that displayed a power up.

[RandomGuy96]

Fair enough I guess, but I consider anger + the steam to be indicative of a power up, not just anger alone. And it seems odd no one would mention this power up after Krillin just mentioned the other power up not two minutes ago.

EDIT: see post below for more up to date numbers.

[Mjb1985]

I don't think Super Buu should be that low. He never started to lose really badly until he found out Gotenks was about to defuse. I think he toyed with Gotenks so when he asked them to fuse and fight him again, they would be eager to do so. There's literally no reason for Buu to be going all out against Gotenks with his plan about absorbtion in mind.

Plus he was mentally weakened and I'm sure your shuuki and yukki logic that you use for Dodoria can work for this situation as well. So I don't see any need at all to have Super anything less than a close rival.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think Super Buu should be that low. He never started to lose really badly until he found out Gotenks was about to defuse. I think he toyed with Gotenks so when he asked them to fuse and fight him again, they would be eager to do so. There's literally no reason for Buu to be going all out against Gotenks with his plan about absorbtion in mind.

Plus he was mentally weakened and I'm sure your shuuki and yukki logic that you use for Dodoria can work for this situation as well. So I don't see any need at all to have Super anything less than a close rival.

He never seemed close to Gotenks IMO. Gotenks was pretty much toying with him since the beginning, taunting him, ignoring his attempts at offense, flamboyantly announcing his attacks even as Super Buu tried and failed to hit him, and yet he still kicked the crap out of Super Buu. Before he figured out Gotenks could defuse, he didn't even land a single hit on Gotenks, and got headbutted, trapped in a volleyball, smacked around, blown up by being spiked into the ground, and blasted with Death Missiles. Even afterwards, it was only because of Gotenks' carelessness that Super was able to do anything at all. And despite Buu's huge plethora of advantages, Gotenks was still about to kill him.

I disagree with Buu toying; I think he was actually fighting for survival here. He looked extremely pissed and I just can't see him holding back and letting himself get humiliated like that. I mean his supposed toying very nearly got him killed; at the very least he could've defended himself. But nope. He was about to die, and only pure luck and Gotenks' stupidity saved him. He definitely didn't look like he had the situation all under control, he was being one upped the whole time. And he implied to Gohan that he was using his full power against Gotenks anyway, when Gohan said that he was testing his full power.

Well, just as you don't see a need to have Super Buu much weaker than Gotenks, I don't see a reason to have him close to Gotenks. I reviewed that fight and it was ridiculously one-sided; even notorious stomps like Mr. Buu vs Kid Buu and Goku vs Freeza seemed closer. The shuuki theory can apply here, but I just don't see the need for it, and prefer just to have Super weaker. He only landed two hits, and both times were due to Gotenks' carelessness, not Buu's strength or speed, and both time he did only a little damage, while each of Gotenks' hits left Buu reeling. Just a complete whooping from Gotenks. I think 75-80% fits perfectly here.

On another important note: I made ANOTHER major revision to the list. I changed the fusion formula to (A + B) x 4, resulting in the kids being closer to the adults and Gogeta being further from Buuhan, and buffed all the Fusion Saga tier guys so I don't have to use a lower SS3 multiplier for fusees. I just changed the South Kaioshin absorption from A + B to (A + B) x 2; I've seen some good points for why that particular absorption was atypical and recently converted to that side. Everything looks cleaner now.

I think that Gogeta's placement also fits; the story, through comments from Buu and Goku, seemed to set up a clear chain on how SS3 Gogeta would perform had he been formed:

vs Super Buu: he'd definitely beat him without trouble. Based on the fact that the adults are a lot stronger than the kids and Goku saying that if he and Vegeta did the dance fusion, they could easily beat Super Buu.

vs Buutenks: he probably can't beat him. Based on Buutenks admitting to his opponents that he doesn't think a dance fused Gokan (who should be equal to Gogeta, since I believe Gohan post Z sword = Vegeta in base) could beat him, but that he wasn't 100% sure.

vs Buuhan: he definitely can't beat him. Based on Goku saying Potara is the only way to beat Buuhan (thus continuing the escalating magical power ups required to fight Buu), Goku not even thinking to try using dance fusion until literally right after they yank Gohan out of Buu, and Buuhan mentally predicting (read: not boasting) that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, both of whom he was sensing at that moment, would be nothing to him. Also, the fact that the adults can't be THIS much stronger than the kids.

Anyway, the list above has been deleted. My new Fusion Saga numbers, on my BP list on page 149:

Super Buu- 120,000,000,000
--Mouth Blast (x1.25)- 150,000,000,000
--Piccolo absorbed- 121,50,000,000
--Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 126,500,000,000
--Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed- 281,500,000,000
--Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 350,000,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta-
--Super Saiyan- 36,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 72,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 288,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan- 213,000,000,000

Gotenks (post-ROSAT)-
--Super Saiyan- 20,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 160,000,000,000

Kid Buu- 40,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed- 140,000,000,000

I use a different fusion multiplier for Movie 12. (A + B) x 10. I base this on Toei saying that their Gogeta was tens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta.

[Son Edo]

Atleast you are unbiased.

[Mjb1985]

Super Buu did pretty well initially against Gotenks. It was a short fight but it was pretty close. Then he started to do the Buu ball thing and got stuck in the volleyball.

[RandomGuy96]

There was no "initial fight" really. Gotenks headbutted Buu, Buu threw Gotenks (I don't really count that as a hit), then he tried to do the ball attack. He failed to land a blow, despite Gotenks screwing around and not taking it seriously, and got trapped in the rings, knocked around, blown up, and showered with ki blasts. So yeah. He was being demolished and never even hit Gotenks in turn.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I see what you are saying. Gotenks definitely appears to have a bit of an edge and Buu is freaking pissed. I'd put Buu at a distant rivaling range. Maybe a little closer than Zarbon vs Vegeta.

[Son Edo]

In the anime, Gohan-absorbed Boo says he's much more powered up than before. Hinting a big gap. Gohan-absorbed Boo >>> Gotenks-absorbed Boo.

[RandomGuy96]

In the manga he just says that he powered up even more than before. Besides, I do have a big gap between Gohan-Buu and Gotenks-Buu, since I have SS3 Gogeta = Gotenks-Buu.

[Son Edo]

Trunks thought Gohan was as strong as their Super Gotenks but they've been proven wrong before. Like when they thought they could defeat defeat fat boo if they all ganged up on him.

Super Vegetto struggled to break Gohan-absorbed boo's barrier when in a frenzy, Base Vegetto ain't breaking that. Gohan-absorbed Boo tearing dimensions > Base Vegetto anime.

[RandomGuy96]

I got inspired by some talk going on in the thread I made; this is a quasi-joke list going by the following the guidebook statements that Goten has the same battle power as Gohan and Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta before training the ROSAT and obtaining Super Saiyan 3:

Fusion Saga

Goten- 62,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 3,100,000,000

Trunks- 68,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 3,400,000,000

Gotenks- 130,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 6,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 52,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan- 65,000,000,000

Super Buu- 45,000,000,000
--Shuuki lost- 38,000,000,000
---Mouth Blast (x1.25)- 47,500,000,000
--Piccolo absorbed- 46,200,000,000
--Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 52,700,000,000
--Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed- 98,200,000,000
--Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 117,700,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta- 165,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 66,000,000,000

Goku- 81,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 32,400,000,000

Mr. Buu- 29,000,000,000

Kid Buu- 36,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed- 63,000,000,000

South Kaioshin- 27,000,000,000

[Draken]

Hot damn that's the weakest fusion multiplier ever. How do two weak warriors become a fearsome warrior from simple addition?

[RandomGuy96]

The technique only works right for Metamorans, but no one bothered to tell him that, since he didn't ask about it. Otherwise it just adds the powers. That's the only way the Daizenshuu's seemingly contradicting lines make sense.

[Son Edo]

Is it even possible for Goku to fuse with Gohan through metamorian?

considering he couldn't do it in the afterlife because no one was on par with him.

Maybe you can only suppress your power at a certain limit in order for it to work, Trunks and Goten are almost equal in power so Goten didn't have to suppress himself as much. Base Goku and Ultimate Gohan is a huge gap so it probably wasn't possible.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, so... ya'll are probably getting tired of it, but another update. I thought my previous numbers just didn't look neat enough, and that having Goku at 80,000,000 left everything too crammed. So I raised Goku to 90,000,000 and adjusted everyone else accordingly, starting with the Cell Games. Everything fits much, much better and looks much, much neater and cleaner. They're still on page 149 if anyone would like to see them, but little has changed in terms of relative strengths; for example, South Kaioshin moved from 27,000,000,000 to 30,000,000,000, but he's still 75% of Kid Buu.

In terms of relative strengths, the most major change was raising Kaioshin and Piccolo; I felt generous towards him and so raised him to 1,800,000,000, well above a Cell Junior in the Buu Saga. Kaioshin on the other hand is 2,400,000,000, exactly as strong as Cell Games Goku. Also, it's a minor thing, but I made Evil Buu weaker than Kid Buu whereas I formerly had them equal; this fits my theory about why Evil Buu is the way he is; the Kaioshin influence in him isn't helping him when mixed with Kid Buu's essence.

I have base Goku where I have him because of Toriyama's comments on how EoZ, BOG, and Buu Saga Goku compare. While I don't have a BOG or EoZ list, and probably won't do either, but I'd have base Goku during BOG at 105,000,000 and base Goku at the EoZ at 100,000,000, making him exactly equal with Kid Buu as a Super Saiyan 3.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I don't think fusion is a mere addition and Goku knows how Metamoran works just fine. He makes a prediction that's backed up by several cast members.

Metamoran fusion only is extreme for Metamorans. Now come on man. That's a serious stretch.

[RandomGuy96]

Yea I don't think fusion is a mere addition and Goku knows how Metamoran works just fine. He makes a prediction that's backed up by several cast members.

Metamoran fusion only is extreme for Metamorans. Now come on man. That's a serious stretch.

Hence the term "quasi-joke list". I was trying to illustrate the problems that are created if you accept the Daizenshuu's extremely weird and illogical Gotenks nerf, but then don't just cherry pick the rest of the information.

On my main list, I think that's the last revision I'm making for a while... probably...

EDIT: Okay, one minor update. I changed Buu Saga Piccolo to 1,500,000,000, making him about even with a Cell Junior. That's fair enough for him, I think. I also changed Kaioshin to 2,000,000,000, in between a Cell Junior and Cell Games Goku. I remembered that it doesn't make much sense if Piccolo is that strong in the Cell Games, since everyone thought Goku's 50% was his full power, and I can't imagine Piccolo being superior to that. He is however slightly superior to Vegeta and Trunks after the first ROSAT trip, justifying Trunks' surprise that Piccolo would be useless. A nice even 1,000,000,000 back at the Cell Games. Also, I like that all of the Kaioshin but South are a billion points apart; looks neat.

East Kaioshin- 2,000,000,000
Grand Kaioshin- 3,000,000,000
North Kaioshin- 4,000,000,000
West Kaioshin- 5,000,000,000
South Kaioshin- 30,000,000,000

And neatness is god.

EDIT EDIT: Okay, last update... seriously. Changed Buu's 'fusion multiplier' to (A + B) x 2.5 and the dance multiplier to (A + B) x 5. No real reason, it just bothered me when I noticed that by the formula I had previously, SS Gogeta would be the exact same strength as SS3 Goku; I know Gogeta was never even formed in the manga, but that... just seems wrong. All relative powers are mostly the same, everyone's just 25% stronger in the Fusion Saga as the result of higher scaling.