Buu Saga: The Best/Worst Saga In DBZ

[Looneygamemaster]

I always thought the Buu arc started off particularly strong, but by the time Gotenks came along it began to fade a bit. I still think the climax for the arc was really good and that final Genki Dama was a brilliant way to bring in a bunch of old characters and round off the series nicely.

That's pretty much how I feel too. The Boo arc is my favorite part of DBZ--after being so serious and "epic", bringing back Dragon Ball's old silliness was a breath of fresh air. I also really like Videl--she's easily Toriyama's best written female character (not that that's saying much )

But re-watching it on the Dragon Boxes, I never really realized how long this arc is. I think it started to lose me a bit once Super Boo got smart. Boo's a great villain for how he's different than Freeza and Cell (a child's mind with the body of a seemingly unstoppable juggernaut), but getting smart briefly jettisoned that trait, and he became another "arrogant sadist" (and I think Shioya's performance suffered accordingly--he felt like he was trying too hard to copy Nakao or Wakamoto).

Still, I love the final fight with Kid Boo, and the Genki Dama clash gets my vote for the best action scene in DBZ.

[ABED]

Lucky, perhaps, but still not a backfire. Backfire implies failure. They didn't fail. Even if they won by the skin of their teeth, that's still winning. Goku was confident Gohan could defeat Super Buu after Gotenks fusion wore off, and they were successful in freeing Gohan. They just didn't plan on pure Buu, and who would? He even seemed confident that if he had the time to power up in SS3, he could've defeated pure Buu, but he just didn't count on his living body unable to handle it. Bottom line, they were luck, but it didn't backfire. To put it another way, they were lucky that their plan didn't ultimately backfire on them.

I agree that the Buu arc has too much stuff that amounted to nothing, and Toriyama's penchant for making stuff up on the fly created a lot of inconsistencies. Goku fights Vegeta, knowing he could be a lot stronger, and just lets Buu get released. It's one thing if he was planning to fight him, but no. He knew he wouldn't have the time, so Toriyama was forced to make up things like Goku wanting the living to take care of their world. There's Buu's transformations which make very little sense, Gotenks which goes nowhere, Gohan's powerup goes nowhere, and Super Saiyan 3 again goes nowhere. Then there's the terrible ending where he leaves his family to train with Uub. It would be one thing if he said he would live with his family but train with Uub, but no, he lives with Uub and says he'll visit his family. Knowing Goku, that means it's years between visits in spite of his ability to teleport.

THere are great parts though, such as the humor, Vegeta vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Buu, Mr. Satan getting fleshed out and humanized, the fight against Kid Buu, pretty much all of Vegeta's story, especially his resolution (finally admitting that Goku's number one).

GT had a great ending, DB had the perfect ending, but Z had a crap ending. While the dance episode ain't that great, I do like how it ends with everyone gathered around Goku and him winking at the audience. "everything's better with Goku around!" That's how I wished it had ended.

[rereboy]

Backfire implies failure.

So, in short, you're discussing semantics. Great...

You should note, however, that Vegetto's plan was to release Gohan and the others, not to fight Buu, but simply to release them. Vegetto probably assumed, correctly, that they wouldn't be in fighting shape immediately after being released. Vegetto counted on his own power to defeat Buu.

Goku and Vegeta proceeded with the plan, but as it was shown, there was concern regarding how they would beat Buu. They also probably assumed that Gohan and the others wouldn't be in fighting condition immediately after being set free.

[TheGmGoken]

--she's easily Toriyama's best written female character

I thought Bulma was better to be honest.

GT had a great ending, DB had the perfect ending, but Z had a crap ending.

Z ending was bad. I know it all rounded up as Goku became the master but I would love a cliffhanger ending. The same thing happens(Cept Oob isn't there) and the first match is Goku vs Vegeta. With Goku and Vegeta charging at each other as the last panel. Then Battle of Gods would introduce Oob as a God(Reincarnation of Pure Boo). Re-title the movie Battle with a God. Thus he movie concludes the Boo Arc after 20 years. Long wait but worth it. Still would end faster than HighSchool of the dead.

[ABED]

Backfire implies failure.

So, in short, you're discussing semantics. Great.

You should note however that Vegetto's plan to release Gohan and the others, not to fight Buu, but simply to release them. He probably assumed, correctly, that they wouldn't be in fighting shape immediately after being released. Vegetto counted on his own power to defeat Buu.

Semantics aren't irrelevant. It depends on what one takes "backfire" to mean. It didn't work out exactly as they planned and certainly made things more difficult, but it was by no means a failure or loss. One could argue that they would prefer what happened to what they expected, Vegeta especially.

I did note that their plan wasn't to kill Buu, however Buu would also be weakened and Goku and Vegeta had the combined power to win, at least that's what Toriyama implies.

I would love a cliffhanger ending.

Not a fan of cliffhanger endings. It's what everything leads to hopefully, so why end without closure?

[TheGmGoken]

Not a fan of cliffhanger endings. It's what everything leads to hopefully, so why end without closure?

Depends on the type of cliffhanger. Not the ones were there are unanswered question or the screen turn black mid sentence. But two fighters everyone want to see fight charging at each other is a great cliffhanger.

[ABED]

Not a fan of cliffhanger endings. It's what everything leads to hopefully, so why end without closure?

Depends on the type of cliffhanger. Not the ones were there are unanswered question or the screen turn black mid sentence. But two fighters everyone want to see fight charging at each other is a great cliffhanger.

Like the ending of Rocky 3 type thing?

[TheGmGoken]

Not a fan of cliffhanger endings. It's what everything leads to hopefully, so why end without closure?

Depends on the type of cliffhanger. Not the ones were there are unanswered question or the screen turn black mid sentence. But two fighters everyone want to see fight charging at each other is a great cliffhanger.

Like the ending of Rocky 3 type thing?

Yeah.

[ABED]

I know this is me being a pain in the ass with semantics, but I don't consider that a cliff hanger in that it's not meant to bring the audience into the next season, episode, chapter, book, etc. It's ending mid action after the climax, which I'm fine with. I liked it in Justice League Unlimited (I'm not including the Batman Beyond coda).

[rereboy]

Backfire implies failure.

So, in short, you're discussing semantics. Great.

You should note however that Vegetto's plan to release Gohan and the others, not to fight Buu, but simply to release them. He probably assumed, correctly, that they wouldn't be in fighting shape immediately after being released. Vegetto counted on his own power to defeat Buu.

Semantics aren't irrelevant.

I did note that their plan wasn't to kill Buu, however Buu would also be weakened and Goku and Vegeta had the combined power to win, at least that's what Toriyama implies.

If you really want to get technical with the semantics and intended meanings, since Vegetto's plan was to actually save the life of everyone trapped inside Buu, and since Pure Buu immediately killed everyone that was rescued, along with the whole planet, due to the fact that Goku and Vegeta weren't strong enough to stop him (while Vegetto would have been), can you really say that Vegetto's plan achieved all of his objectives (save their lives)? Or did the end result end up being the opposite of what the plan was with them dying, aka the plan backfired?

Besides that, you state that semantics aren't irrelevant, yet you state something irrelevant for Vegetto's plan like making Buu weaker so that Goku and Vegeta can have better chances. At most that's an adaption of the goal of Vegetto's plan to suit Goku and Vegeta's needs now that Vegetto's plan had resulted in him defusing. Vegetto didn't even consider that as relevant.

You are just chasing around literal meanings and different ways of putting things to make it sound like Vegetto's plan didn't go horribly wrong and didn't only turned out to have an overall good outcome through luck. Even the ones he wanted to save ended up dying due to how his plan turned out. If his purpose was to have them all die, he should just have killed Gohan-Buu right there instead of letting him absorb him and then wish them back.

[ABED]

If you really want to get technical with the semantics and intended meanings, since Vegetto's plan was to actually save the life of everyone trapped inside Buu, since Pure Buu immediately killed everyone that was rescued, along with the whole planet, due to the fact that Goku and Vegeta weren't strong enough to stop him (while Vegetto would have been), can you really say that Vegetto's plan achieved all of his objectives (save their lives)? Or did the end result end up being the opposite of what the plan was with them dying, aka the plan backfired?

Besides that, you state that semantics aren't irrelevant, yet you state something irrelevant for Vegetto's plan like making Buu weaker so that Goku and Vegeta can have a better chances. At most that's an adaption of Vegetto's plan to suit Goku and Vegeta's needs now that Vegetto's plan had resulted in him defusing.

You are just chasing around literal meanings and different ways of putting things to make it sound like Vegetto's plan didn't go horribly wrong and only turned out to have a good outcome through luck.

Point 1 - Good point, can't believe I didn't think of that.
Point 2 - I'm confused by your wording, but if I understand you right, it wasn't neccessarily relevant seeing as how he thought it was permanent, but on the offchance, he knew Goku and Vegeta could win, assuming Buu went back to his previous form. Having contingencies are always relevant.
Point 3 - My point was that I didn't think it backfired because they got their intended goal, I completely blanked on what happened next. They were lucky, never denied that, but it wasn't pure luck. I'd hardly call it going horribly. There were always the Namekian Dragon Balls and Dende.

You really seemed ticked at me.

[rereboy]

You really seemed ticked at me.

I don't really get ticked at forums. I'm answering you more "fiercely" than I normally would simply because I thought it didn't make any sense for you to disagree with what Kamiccolo9 stated and I can't really wrap my mind around why anyone would disagree with that. In general I even try to avoid engaging in discussions with you because I've already concluded that our way of thinking is way too incompatible to turn into something other than an almost endless debate.

On Topic: Buu saga had some of the worst plot flaws in it of all DBZ, but its the most unique saga and a great ride. I don't think its either the worst or the best overall. Its the best at some things but the worst at others. At humor its definitely the best, as well as the characteristic Toriyama feeling.

[ABED]

You really seemed ticked at me.

I don't really get ticked at forums. I'm answering you more "fiercely" than I normally would simply because I thought it didn't make any sense for you to disagree with what Kamiccolo9 stated and I can't really wrap my mind around why anyone would disagree with that. In general I even try to avoid engaging in discussions with you because I've already concluded that our way of thinking is way too incompatible to turn into something other than an almost endless debate.

On Topic: Buu saga had some of the worst plot flaws in it of all DBZ, but its the most unique saga and a great ride. I don't think its either the worst or the best overall. Its the best of some things but the worst at others.

I concede that you made a lot of good points but I still don't consider Vegetto getting absorbed a "loss" even though and because it was intentional.

The debates don't have to be endless, just say "I think it's best to leave it at that" or something like that.

I agree with your last point. Some of the worst, but also some of the best. The Cell arc has some great stuff and a great villain but many of the fights were so one sided that it got tiresome. At least Buu looked like he took a beating instead of being the unmoveable object.

[RandomGuy96]

I have a love-hate relationship with the Buu Saga.

Love:

* Mainly: the pink bubblegum monster himself. In all forms. He is, in my opinion, the best villain in the franchise. Super Buu in particular; he is both the funniest and the most intelligent, as well as the coolest. Kid Buu is also thoroughly enjoyable with his comical insanity (more so in the anime) and weird 'fighting style'.
* Some of the abilities were pretty interesting, especially Buu's and Gotenks'.
* Dabra was pretty cool.
* Babidi was funny.
* Gohan actually had a personality.
* The anime is actually arguably better than the manga ('cept the typical Goku wank bullshit). A lot of the filler makes the more enjoyable, like the Gohan vs Buutenks filler, the flashback to the history of Buu, Mr. Satan befriending Fat Buu, Krillin standing up to Super Buu, Goku and Vegeta's adventures through Buu's body...
* The Genki Dama was a great way to end everything.
* Elder Kaioshin was the only good guy in the arc who knew what he was doing.
* Only a couple moments made me wince.

Hate:
* Goku's character derailment. It was in this saga that he became a completely unsympathetic and thoroughly despicable 'hero', to the point that I was hoping for Super Buu or Kid Buu to kill him.
** Buu killed everyone but Goku.
* Vegeta. Just everything about him in this saga, especially randomly going back to being evil and killing a bunch of people, and then being forgiven afterwards.
* Vegetto. Formed through an ass pull, a bajillion times stronger than everyone else, induced PIS in the villain so that he could win, extremely boring fight, robbed us of a good climatic battle with the most powerful villain in Z, and on top of all of that he's ridiculously overrated by fans. I HATE this character.
* The non-saiyans were completely irrelevant.
* Kaioshin became a bitch after his first appearance, and became the butt monkey of the arc to the point it almost became comical.
* Goten and Trunks are a horrible blight upon this world and should be tossed into the sun.
* Super Saiyan 3 sucks.
* Gohan was sloppily written out to make way for Goku, and then Super Buu was ass-pulled into becoming weaker so he wouldn't bend Goku over a table.

So in the end, I'm not sure where to place it on my list of best sagas; sometimes I think it's the best, sometimes I think it's the second worst (behind the Cell Saga). But I lean more towards "best".

[mAcChaos]

I always liked it. Buu is too cool a villain to dislike.

The only part that always grated on me was Gotenks but everything before and after was great.

Although now that I think about it, I wonder why Toriyama didn't just have Goku go all out against Fat Buu, and still lose. That would have solved all the "how could Goku let Fat Buu go on a gamble" problems. Then with Goku seeing he can't do it, Gotenks would still be necessary.

[dbzfan7]

I have a love-hate relationship with the Buu Saga.

Love:

* Mainly: the pink bubblegum monster himself. In all forms. He is, in my opinion, the best villain in the franchise. Super Buu in particular; he is both the funniest and the most intelligent, as well as the coolest. Kid Buu is also thoroughly enjoyable with his comical insanity (more so in the anime) and weird 'fighting style'.
* Some of the abilities were pretty interesting, especially Buu's and Gotenks'.
* Dabra was pretty cool.
* Babidi was funny.
* Gohan actually had a personality.
* The anime is actually arguably better than the manga ('cept the typical Goku wank bullshit). A lot of the filler makes the more enjoyable, like the Gohan vs Buutenks filler, the flashback to the history of Buu, Mr. Satan befriending Fat Buu, Krillin standing up to Super Buu, Goku and Vegeta's adventures through Buu's body...
* The Genki Dama was a great way to end everything.
* Elder Kaioshin was the only good guy in the arc who knew what he was doing.
* Only a couple moments made me wince.

Hate:
* Goku's character derailment. It was in this saga that he became a completely unsympathetic and thoroughly despicable 'hero', to the point that I was hoping for Super Buu or Kid Buu to kill him.
** Buu killed everyone but Goku.
* Vegeta. Just everything about him in this saga, especially randomly going back to being evil and killing a bunch of people, and then being forgiven afterwards.
* Vegetto. Formed through an ass pull, a bajillion times stronger than everyone else, induced PIS in the villain so that he could win, extremely boring fight, robbed us of a good climatic battle with the most powerful villain in Z, and on top of all of that he's ridiculously overrated by fans. I HATE this character.
* The non-saiyans were completely irrelevant.
* Kaioshin became a bitch after his first appearance, and became the butt monkey of the arc to the point it almost became comical.
* Goten and Trunks are a horrible blight upon this world and should be tossed into the sun.
* Super Saiyan 3 sucks.
* Gohan was sloppily written out to make way for Goku, and then Super Buu was ass-pulled into becoming weaker so he wouldn't bend Goku over a table.

So in the end, I'm not sure where to place it on my list of best sagas; sometimes I think it's the best, sometimes I think it's the second worst (behind the Cell Saga). But I lean more towards "best".

I agree with all the good except i'm still deciding if I like Freeza or Super Boo more. I'm recently having a hard time between the two.

I agree with most of the bad. I don't hate Goten and Trunks and to be honest it's only Trunks who is bad. Goten is just a tool for Trunks (which leaves him with little to no individuality, it's like he took Gohans old spot). Gotenks however was annoying and not cocky in the funny way but in the annoying way. I really liked Vegetto and wouldn't change anything about it. He was Gotenks done right. I also really enjoyed his fight and Super Boo desperately trying to overcome him but is horribly out matched. But his fans are really annoying in overrating him. SSJ3 I liked even though no eyebrows is stupid, but it wasn't utilized to well. But it's good a new SSJ form didn't become the defacto finisher of a saga. Everything else .

[Son Edo]

It's a good story. We're introduced to fusions the strongest technique in the cosmos. Gotenks-absorbed Boo was the best villain in this arc(In my opinion). SSJ3 is also the best super saiyan form. And it was good to see some alien villains instead of artificial humans.

[sangofe]

I liked it but it is the weakest of the arcs. I enjoyed the new characters even if they did become useless and I like the idea of fusion.

Best to worst arcs:

Boo saga (all of them, but my favorite's Super Boo to Kid Boo), Unperfect Cell saga, Saiyan saga, Freeza Saga, Android saga, Perfect Cell saga, Garlic Jr. saga.

[Dr. Machismo]

It's definitely the worst. IMO, Akira Toriyama really wanted to get it out of the way.

Some of what I really didn't like about was how Goten and Trunks had little to any depth and character development, Super Saiyan 3 and the fusions were too random and it ended too abruptly. The story just had so much less depth than the other sagas.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

It's not the best -- the Saiyan and Freeza arcs are better -- but it redeems the series somewhat after the complete mess of the Cell arc. The ending isn't terrible, but for a series as long as DBZ, you want something more satisfying.


The overarching story of the Boo saga isn't as compelling as the Saiyan or Freeza sagas, but there are lot of bits and pieces in it that make it worth watching and that have already been mentioned in this thread: the humor, seeing the characters grow up or mature, Goku and Vegeta's final battle, fusion etc.


People complain about Goku doing everything or winning the final battle and praise the Cell arc for ending with the ultimate triumph of someone other than Goku, but this is, after all, Goku's story. If the series was literally called "Goku's story" or else had his name in the title somewhere, which it reasonably could, no one would be complaining. I don't mind that GT does this and largely ignores Uub, whom Goku spent all those years training --- but I do mind that it's wildly inconsistent in terms of Goku's strength after being turned back into a child.