I don't think he's shocked that Piccolo can't win. He's shocked that Piccolo is completely worthless. He at least figured that Piccolo could help. Or maybe he's shocked by Goku's bluntness.
Both Herms and Viz have Piccolo immediately knowing how useless he is, so.... yeah. Nothing is implied about his strength other than that he's a fly to Cell.
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
A Super Vegeta tier fighter is known to be worthless, the shock doesn't make sense if he is = that, he should know already.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Buu uses the full powers of those he absorbs - Gotenks lasts 30 minutes, but Buu gains the power of SS3.hleV wrote:Piccolo is stronger than base boys.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
We don't know that for sure. It's possible that Gotenks was a SS3 inside Boo, but Boo's infinite stamina prevented SS3 from draining any power.Rocketman wrote:Buu uses the full powers of those he absorbs - Gotenks lasts 30 minutes, but Buu gains the power of SS3.hleV wrote:Piccolo is stronger than base boys.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Not really. Jeice was too weak to do anything to Goku, but he was still worth something in a team up. Same with Krillin when fighting Nappa.Zombie wrote:A Super Vegeta tier fighter is known to be worthless, the shock doesn't make sense if he is = that, he should know already.
And again, he could just be shocked about Goku's bluntness. That scene doesn't prove anything other than that Piccolo is useless against Cell. His power is worth so little that Goku goes so far as to ask him to defuse.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Are you serious?RandomGuy96 wrote:Not really. Jeice was too weak to do anything to Goku, but he was still worth something in a team up. Same with Krillin when fighting Nappa.Zombie wrote:A Super Vegeta tier fighter is known to be worthless, the shock doesn't make sense if he is = that, he should know already.
The tournament wasn't a team up, Piccolo would've fought Cell one on one. Everyone knew this.
Edit: It can go either way but him standing up to the juniors gives more credibility to him being over Super Vegeta.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Why wouldn't I be?
Trunks wanted to team up later. It was never stated Picccolo planned to fight one on one, or that Trunks thought that. Trunks is just shocked that Piccolo (and by extension Trunks himself) can't do anything even teaming up with Goku.
The Juniors were toying with everyone completely. I don't think Piccolo would be the exception to this; he was getting beaten up and never even landed a hit on his enemy. The Junior doesn't even seem tired. Piccolo also wasn't included in Cell's list of people holding their own. Plus at the very least Piccolo must be weaker than 50% Goku.
When you think about it my placement of him is pretty generous. He didn't have a sparring partner and he didn't unlock a new form that boosted his power level massively, yet he still kept up with the Trunks and Vegeta after their first ROSAT trip. It's only after their second trip that he truly fell behind.
Trunks wanted to team up later. It was never stated Picccolo planned to fight one on one, or that Trunks thought that. Trunks is just shocked that Piccolo (and by extension Trunks himself) can't do anything even teaming up with Goku.
The Juniors were toying with everyone completely. I don't think Piccolo would be the exception to this; he was getting beaten up and never even landed a hit on his enemy. The Junior doesn't even seem tired. Piccolo also wasn't included in Cell's list of people holding their own. Plus at the very least Piccolo must be weaker than 50% Goku.
When you think about it my placement of him is pretty generous. He didn't have a sparring partner and he didn't unlock a new form that boosted his power level massively, yet he still kept up with the Trunks and Vegeta after their first ROSAT trip. It's only after their second trip that he truly fell behind.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Is it said in the manga for how long Gotenks lasted inside Boo? Judging from the boys' conversation inside ROSAT I assume that if Gotenks goes SS3 from the start, not only the form but the fusion itself only lasts 5 minutes. So perhaps Boo only fought Gohan for 5 minutes before Gotenks defused?Rocketman wrote:Buu uses the full powers of those he absorbs - Gotenks lasts 30 minutes, but Buu gains the power of SS3.hleV wrote:Piccolo is stronger than base boys.
I'm not saying that as Super Saiyans the boys are stronger than Piccolo, but if Boo had access to all the hidden power of his absorbees without needing those absorbees to be transformed, then Boo would be using SS3 Goten & Trunks' power, which is higher than Piccolo's. In this case I think it would be better to assume that in Boo's body SS3 doesn't have a time limit. Or just call it a bullshit and ignore it.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Buu told Gohan he had 10 minutes before the fusion of the boys ran out, this was mid battle.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I guess my second point stands then. Though just to clarify, when Boo initially says that he has a time limit, is he referring to Gotenks in general, or Super Gotenks transformation?
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
So... still trying to figure out a formula for those Kaioshin absorbptions. Maybe that's unneeded but I have a need to make everything fit together like that. This is what I got now:
Kid Buu- 35,000,000,000
South Kaioshin- 28,000,000,000
Grand Kaioshin- 1,400,000,000
South Kaioshin absorption is this: (35,000,000,000 + 28,000,000,000) x (28/10) = 176,400,000,000 (Buff Buu)
Grand Kaioshin absorption is the South Kaioshin absorption reversed in all ways: (176,400,000,000 - 1,400,000,000) / (1.4 x 10) = 12,500,000,000 (Fat Buu)
Good Buu absorption is the same as the South Kaioshin absorption: (35,000,000,000 + 25,000,000,000) x (25/10) = 150,000,000,000 (Super Buu)
Yeah yeah, I over think things... but look at that nice clean formula...
Kid Buu- 35,000,000,000
South Kaioshin- 28,000,000,000
Grand Kaioshin- 1,400,000,000
South Kaioshin absorption is this: (35,000,000,000 + 28,000,000,000) x (28/10) = 176,400,000,000 (Buff Buu)
Grand Kaioshin absorption is the South Kaioshin absorption reversed in all ways: (176,400,000,000 - 1,400,000,000) / (1.4 x 10) = 12,500,000,000 (Fat Buu)
Good Buu absorption is the same as the South Kaioshin absorption: (35,000,000,000 + 25,000,000,000) x (25/10) = 150,000,000,000 (Super Buu)
Yeah yeah, I over think things... but look at that nice clean formula...
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Why would Kaioshin say that Kibitoshin would get absorbed instead of getting killed, maybe Gotenks-absorbed Boo would have found Kibitoshin as a useful power to absorb.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Actually, I'm beginning to think Gotenks' SS3 multiplier might just be really, really small, based on SS Gotenks' fight with Super Buu. Like x1.5 kind of small.
Think about it: say you just saw the whole Super Buu vs Gotenks fight out of context. You do not know the multipliers or anything; you don't even know if SS3 is a multiplier. You are looking at this fight as a viewer, not a power level enthusiast:
Would you honestly believe SS Gotenks was multi-folds weaker than Super Buu? He was able to hold his own somewhat (tanked a few hits, dodged a punch, landed a rather painful looking headbutt on Super Buu, gave him a ton of pain with his ghost attack) and nearly killed Buu when he blew him apart with the Kamikaze Ghosts. This is in contrast to base Gotenks, who Super Buu was able to tank. Super Buu also called base Gotenks weak and said he'd kill him since fighting him would be no fun. He didn't say the same about SS Gotenks. It seems arbitrary that he'd consider someone 0.25% of his power to be a bug, but someone at 12.5% of his power. Both of them would just be weaksauce compared to him, and he'd tank both of them as well. Yet he tanked base Gotenks, but not Super Saiyan Gotenks...
I don't think Buu is the kind of guy who'd let himself get hit, and he seemed to be in a ton of pain whenever one of Gotenks' attacks connected. He also very well could've died from the Kamikaze Ghosts.
Think about it: say you just saw the whole Super Buu vs Gotenks fight out of context. You do not know the multipliers or anything; you don't even know if SS3 is a multiplier. You are looking at this fight as a viewer, not a power level enthusiast:
Would you honestly believe SS Gotenks was multi-folds weaker than Super Buu? He was able to hold his own somewhat (tanked a few hits, dodged a punch, landed a rather painful looking headbutt on Super Buu, gave him a ton of pain with his ghost attack) and nearly killed Buu when he blew him apart with the Kamikaze Ghosts. This is in contrast to base Gotenks, who Super Buu was able to tank. Super Buu also called base Gotenks weak and said he'd kill him since fighting him would be no fun. He didn't say the same about SS Gotenks. It seems arbitrary that he'd consider someone 0.25% of his power to be a bug, but someone at 12.5% of his power. Both of them would just be weaksauce compared to him, and he'd tank both of them as well. Yet he tanked base Gotenks, but not Super Saiyan Gotenks...
I don't think Buu is the kind of guy who'd let himself get hit, and he seemed to be in a ton of pain whenever one of Gotenks' attacks connected. He also very well could've died from the Kamikaze Ghosts.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Before I knew of the multipliers I never thought Super Saiyan Gotenks was close to Boo. I thought his Super Kamikaze Ghost was impressive in power, but that's it.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I don't think he's CLOSE to Buu, but not so weak that Buu can tank him and one-shot him as a multi-fold gap (or hell, according to Ginyu, a x1.5 gap) would imply. When I first saw it I never thought that Buu could dispose of Gotenks like Semi-Cell disposed of 16.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Ah, well, I meant that outside of the SKGA I thought that he was nothing to Boo.RandomGuy96 wrote:I don't think he's CLOSE to Buu, but not so weak that Buu can tank him and one-shot him as a multi-fold gap (or hell, according to Ginyu, a x1.5 gap) would imply. When I first saw it I never thought that Buu could dispose of Gotenks like Semi-Cell disposed of 16.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Well, I think there's a difference between being nothing and being a non-threat. I always thought it was impressive how Semi-Cell didn't even budge from 16's punch, and then proceeded to take him down in one hit. That is one of the most beastly power advantages in the series; 16 couldn't do anything at all and was disposed of in seconds. I didn't get that impression from SS Gotenks vs Super Buu, you know? Gotenks managed to dodged a hit and landed one of his own, and damage Buu with his ki attacks.
I always thought that Gotenks was much weaker than Buu as well, but not to the point where Buu wouldn't even feel Gotenks' attacks or take him out in one hit. The fight just didn't seem to imply that at all.
Did you think that Buu had a bigger advantage over Gotenks than Semi-Cell had over 16?
I always thought that Gotenks was much weaker than Buu as well, but not to the point where Buu wouldn't even feel Gotenks' attacks or take him out in one hit. The fight just didn't seem to imply that at all.
Did you think that Buu had a bigger advantage over Gotenks than Semi-Cell had over 16?
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Malik's power levels for Cyborgs-GT
Anyone want to spot your concerns I wrote a few but I don't want to dive deeply into it
Anyone want to spot your concerns I wrote a few but I don't want to dive deeply into it
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Ssj Gotenks vs Super Buu was completely a gag fight, I don't take any of it too seriously and I definitely wouldn't make any power estimates off of a fight like that fight. Super Buu is drinking a milkshake and reading a magazine mid fight man.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
ALL of Super Buu vs Gotenks is a gag fight. I don't see any reason for feats here not to be taken seriously if we're taking SS3 Gotenks' feats seriously. And SS Gotenks managed to dodge one of Super's hits, land a good blow of his own, and nearly killed Buu with his Ghost attack.Mjb1985 wrote:Ssj Gotenks vs Super Buu was completely a gag fight, I don't take any of it too seriously and I definitely wouldn't make any power estimates off of a fight like that fight. Super Buu is drinking a milkshake and reading a magazine mid fight man.
Going purely by the fight, he didn't seem multifolds weaker. And IMO speculative power levels should always be based off of feats first, consistency second.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.