That's what I'd think as well, but the movie doesn't want us to think that Piccolo doesn't know what he's talking about. The movie pushes it as a legitimate explanation.Zephyr wrote:Piccolo could simply not know what he's talking about. He's not the Super Saiyan God, after all.
If magic doesn't have to work by logic in fictions that resemble our world, it doesn't have to work by DB logic in DB neither.Zephyr wrote:But it's DB logic.
Have you seen it?hleV wrote:the movie doesn't want us to think that Piccolo doesn't know what he's talking about. The movie pushes it as a legitimate explanation..
If it wasn't supposed to be a legitimate explanation, Piccolo wouldn't have said anything regarding the matter. Or a better explanation would've been provided later on.Zephyr wrote:Have you seen it?hleV wrote:the movie doesn't want us to think that Piccolo doesn't know what he's talking about. The movie pushes it as a legitimate explanation..
Usually, when a character gives an explanation as a fact that is not contradicted later, it happens because the author(s) wants to actually give us these information.Zephyr wrote:Have you seen it?hleV wrote:the movie doesn't want us to think that Piccolo doesn't know what he's talking about. The movie pushes it as a legitimate explanation..
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
For instance:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Also hleV, what already established information has BoG broken?
Vegeta probably didn't mention him because he wanted to keep his existence a secret, and also, it was obvious that Trunks wasn't Tarble.hleV wrote:Mention of Tarble. Vegeta was dead certain that there weren't any Saiyans alive besides him and Goku.
Not exactly:hleV wrote:Gohan going SS. The last time he tried that, he ended up "Mightiest Warrior".
He didn't tell Gohan "turn Super Saiyan", he told him "get the gist of it & throw in a kiai", and in BoG, Gohan did exactly the same thing.Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”
In the manga, it was never stated that it was a Saiyan Halflings-exclusive ability. Besides, there is Vegeta's theory in Boo arc that could explain that.hleV wrote:Vegeta getting a rage boost. Pure-blooded Saiyans don't do that.
Freeza said that Saiyans can't breath in the vacuum of space. It was never said that they can't breath in the stratosphere.hleV wrote:Goku breathing in space when it's outright stated that Saiyans can't do that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Fair enough.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Usually, when a character gives an explanation as a fact that is not contradicted later, it happens because the author(s) wants to actually give us these information.
- Vegeta probably mentally realized how impossible it would be for Tarble, or his offspring, to be fighting Freeza.hleV wrote:
- Mention of Tarble. Vegeta was dead certain that there weren't any Saiyans alive besides him and Goku.
- Gohan going SS. The last time he tried that, he ended up "Mightiest Warrior".
- Vegeta getting a rage boost. Pure-blooded Saiyans don't do that.
- Goku breathing in space when it's outright stated that Saiyans can't do that.
The way I see it, it happened because Vegeta, as a good guy, was truly fighting for someone other than himself. When he got angry against Cell after Trunks' death, Vegeta was still partially a bad guy (for example, he didn't hesitate to kill that human in the truck when fighting #18, and he also wanted to kill Goku). By the time of BoG, however, he had fully turned into a good guy, to the point that he was considered a "righteous Saiyan" & worthy enough to help in the creation of (or even become) the Super Saiyan God.Zephyr wrote:Maybe Vegeta was tapping partially into SSj3 without actually transforming?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
At the same time though, nobody else who was "righteous" other than Gohan seemed to have ever gotten a rage boost, which I believe is where the entire complaint stems from. Although, there's no proof that nobody else received a rage boost before. It's possible that other did receive rage boosts, they just happened to be up against opponents that said rage boost didn't amount to anything against.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The way I see it, it happened because Vegeta, as a good guy, was truly fighting for someone other than himself. When he got angry against Cell after Trunks' death, Vegeta was still partially a bad guy (for example, he didn't hesitate to kill that human in the truck when fighting #18, and he also wanted to kill Goku). By the time of BoG, however, he had fully turned into a good guy, to the point that he was considered a "righteous Saiyan" & worthy enough to help in the creation of (or even become) the Super Saiyan God.Zephyr wrote:Maybe Vegeta was tapping partially into SSj3 without actually transforming?
Vegeta was pure evil until he learned about that Future Trunks was his son, that he also had a baby in present, and when he started developing feelings for Bulma. And even after that, he barely showed his true feelings for his family (for example, he had never given Trunks a hug). He was acting like he didn't give shit about anything, even though he did give a shit. And also, perhaps as a super-elite, he has greater dormant power than Goku, a low-class. Perhaps it's a Saiyan thing that only good guys can tap to their true power. We've seen similar things, like SS requiring a calm heart or SSG requiring righteous Saiyans. Saiyans are brutal by their nature, so only a few of them can be good & truly powerful.Zephyr wrote:At the same time though, nobody else who was "righteous" other than Gohan seemed to have ever gotten a rage boost, which I believe is where the entire complaint stems from. Although, there's no proof that nobody else received a rage boost before. It's possible that other did receive rage boosts, they just happened to be up against opponents that said rage boost didn't amount to anything against.
It's not that complex. It also works for Goku as well. To put it simple:hleV wrote:He took that "good guy rage boost" theory out of his ass. If it can't work for Goku, then it working for Vegeta makes it too complex and also unfair for Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
And you honestly think that it's a perfectly legitimate explanation? Nothing whatsoever implies such a thing in the first place. Goku: passive extra power; Vegeta: active extra power? Really? Sorry, I simply can't accept this. This is not the type of shonen that DB is.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku: pure heart, never hides his feelings = the extra power is passive for him.
Vegeta: good guy, has some evil in him, hides his feelings = gets extra power only when he shows his true feelings by getting angry.
Vegeta did suspect in the manga that Goku could be superior due to him fighting for others, so it fits.hleV wrote:And you honestly think that it's a perfectly legitimate explanation? Nothing whatsoever implies such a thing in the first place. Goku: passive extra power; Vegeta: active extra power? Really? Sorry, I simply can't accept this. This is not the type of shonen that DB is.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku: pure heart, never hides his feelings = the extra power is passive for him.
Vegeta: good guy, has some evil in him, hides his feelings = gets extra power only when he shows his true feelings by getting angry.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Except that it has nothing to do with power boosts.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Vegeta did suspect in the manga that Goku could be superior due to him fighting for others, so it fits.
It had. He speculated that the reason that Goku, a low-class, was stronger than Vegeta, a super-elite, because he was fighting for others, while Vegeta was fighting for himself. Then he wondered why he didn't have this power as well. If we connect this with what we saw in BoG (or will see, since we haven't seen the movie yethleV wrote:Except that it has nothing to do with power boosts.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Vegeta did suspect in the manga that Goku could be superior due to him fighting for others, so it fits.
), then what we get is that Vegeta can only gain this kind of power through rage for his loved ones. As for why it works like that for him and not for Goku? Compare Goku's & Vegeta's personalities.James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Then how about Vegeta tapping partially into SSj3?hleV wrote:And you honestly think that it's a perfectly legitimate explanation? Nothing whatsoever implies such a thing in the first place. Goku: passive extra power; Vegeta: active extra power? Really? Sorry, I simply can't accept this. This is not the type of shonen that DB is.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku: pure heart, never hides his feelings = the extra power is passive for him.
Vegeta: good guy, has some evil in him, hides his feelings = gets extra power only when he shows his true feelings by getting angry.
Well it's certainly now been established to be one, at least in Vegeta's own special little snowflake case (although it seems to be more of "AWWW WAIFU POWAA" than anything else). I still don't see what's wrong with this exactly. Yes, it doesn't have any prior basis. But circumstances are also now different for Vegeta than they had been for anyone else at any point prior. You can't dismiss some new concept just because it's new. Vegeta is a fully-redeemed previously-genocidal-evil-asshole, and that allows a deeper connection between his own power and his loved ones' safety, compared to those who didn't have to struggle as much to truly appreciate them.hleV wrote:DB isn't the kind of a shonen that goes "AWWW FRIENDSHIP POWAA"
Not only this doesn't make sense going by what we've seen in the series, but SS3 is only 4x SS2, and Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku. Unless you're to claim that base Vegeta is stronger than base Goku in BOG?Zephyr wrote:Then how about Vegeta tapping partially into SSj3?
It was stated in the manga that Vegeta did superior training than Goku during the 7 years, yet Goku was ahead of Vegeta even without Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta also did superior training than Goku in the preparation for the Artificial Humans, but only managed to slightly surpass Goku.hleV wrote:Goku was only ever stronger than Vegeta thanks to Kaio-ken, better training or additional transformations under his sleeve. No sudden power boosts. Never. So Vegeta's theory is shot down or he meant something else.
If Vegeta is still equal with Goku (minus SS3), then it doesn't work, since SS2 Vegeta surpassed SS3 Goku.Zephyr wrote:Then how about Vegeta tapping partially into SSj3?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Did it say superior training? I thought that it just said he trained harder.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It was stated in the manga that Vegeta did superior training than Goku during the 7 years, yet Goku was ahead of Vegeta even without Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta also did superior training than Goku in the preparation for the Artificial Humans, but only managed to slightly surpass Goku.hleV wrote:Goku was only ever stronger than Vegeta thanks to Kaio-ken, better training or additional transformations under his sleeve. No sudden power boosts. Never. So Vegeta's theory is shot down or he meant something else.
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
