Did the Daizenshuu overrate Nappa?

[dbzfan7]

Nappa's best feat in that whole fight was dodging one kick. Compare that to everything Goku did to Nappa. Once he calmed down and focused, Nappa could admirably at least see Goku move, but he never stopped being Goku's plaything.

Goku needing the Kaio-Ken for a speed boost doesn't mean Nappa's as fast or almost as fast as him. If Goku is twice as fast as Nappa, but Nappa is already halfway to Gohan and Kuririn, then Goku and Nappa would reach them at the same time. Which isn't good enough, especially since Nappa was about to fire his mouth blast attack before he actually reached them. That's why Goku needed to use the Kaio-Ken to gain more speed: to catch Nappa BEFORE he could do something, not AS he did something.

Didn't Goku say this could take forever or something?

[TheGmGoken]

Nappa's best feat in that whole fight was dodging one kick. Compare that to everything Goku did to Nappa. Once he calmed down and focused, Nappa could admirably at least see Goku move, but he never stopped being Goku's plaything.

Goku needing the Kaio-Ken for a speed boost doesn't mean Nappa's as fast or almost as fast as him. If Goku is twice as fast as Nappa, but Nappa is already halfway to Gohan and Kuririn, then Goku and Nappa would reach them at the same time. Which isn't good enough, especially since Nappa was about to fire his mouth blast attack before he actually reached them. That's why Goku needed to use the Kaio-Ken to gain more speed: to catch Nappa BEFORE he could do something, not AS he did something.

Didn't Goku say this could take forever or something?

Yea. That shows the fight could have been even. Through SOme might say Nappa's durability. However I notice during that brief spar they could't hit each other.

[ZombieVito]

Overrated? No way in hell, hes underrated.

His 4000 BP makes no sense at all. Piccolo's 3500 BP doesn't make sense at all too.

[mAcChaos]

I used to read discussions around here pegging Nappa at around 8000 BP. I forget why though. He was probably powered down until Goku showed up and pissed him off.

[RandomGuy96]

I used to read discussions around here pegging Nappa at around 8000 BP. I forget why though. He was probably powered down until Goku showed up and pissed him off.

Nappa can't change his power level. He was at full power the whole time.

[ZombieVito]

I used to read discussions around here pegging Nappa at around 8000 BP. I forget why though. He was probably powered down until Goku showed up and pissed him off.

Nappa can't change his power level. He was at full power the whole time.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 8&page=172

That is a power up...Unless everyone lost the ability to sense Ki the minute they arrived on earth.

[Insertclevername]

I used to read discussions around here pegging Nappa at around 8000 BP. I forget why though. He was probably powered down until Goku showed up and pissed him off.

Nappa can't change his power level. He was at full power the whole time.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 8&page=172

That is a power up...Unless everyone lost the ability to sense Ki the minute they arrived on earth.

He was surfacing his Ki. He wasn't raising it.

[ZombieVito]

This is the first time I have heard of surfacing ki.... Stop making things up to have that 4000 BP as his maximum. It doesn't make sense.

Piccolo's quote can't be more clearer, they both were suppressed.

[Insertclevername]

I'm not "making things up".

Here's a podcast episode about it, along with a small discussion to go with it.

The thread they're talking about in the episode raised the same question as to why Nappa & Vegeta are "powering up" despite the fact that they shouldn't be able to manipulate Ki.

[FoolsGil]

What the hell does surfacing ki mean, and how come out of the manga, anime and fanfics I read, this is the first time I heard of it?

[Insertclevername]

Kaboom sort of coined it. Think of it like showing off your power instead of raising it. It's sort of like flexing your muscles as opposed to growing them.

Read the thread and listen to the podcast episode if you'd like to know more. They're great conversations with interesting theories thrown about.

[FoolsGil]

Kaboom sort of coined it. Think of it like showing off your power instead of raising it. It's sort of like flexing your muscles as opposed to growing them.

Read the thread and listen to the podcast episode if you'd like to know more. They're great conversations with interesting theories thrown about.

Read a bit of the link. So, if what you're saying is accurate, the reason why the Z Fighters panicked, froze, and subsequently got wiped out was because Nappa flexed his power level of 4000, though all the Z Fighters could already tell that he was at 4000?

[Insertclevername]

Perhaps it was the destructive force of his Ki that surprised them. I mean, there is a bit of a guesstimating when it comes to sensing Ki, especially at this scale. For all we know, they could have underestimated Nappa and/or were not pinpoint accurate in sensing his depths of his Ki reserve.

Damn, trying to convey to others is hard.

[Kamiccolo9]

Perhaps it was the destructive force of his Ki that surprised them. I mean, there is a bit of a guesstimating when it comes to sensing Ki, especially at this scale. For all we know, they could have underestimated Nappa and/or were not pinpoint accurate in sensing his depths of his Ki reserve.

Damn, trying to convey to others is hard.

Maybe it'll help if I just post Kaboom's theory?

Okay everyone step back, I got this.

It may all seem confusing, but when you separate everything and look at it, there's a way to make sense of it. Like some of y'all have pointed out already, there's a marked difference in the methods at use here, both in using power and sensing it.

You've got your Earth warriors. They can actually control and alter their power level, for the purposes of stealth, preserving energy, deceiving their enemies, and so forth. This is an extremely rare ability that most races can't or don't know how to do without actually transforming.

They're also special in how they measure power. They learn to sense ki naturally, requiring no extra tools to detect or measure it. This is a huge tactical advantage in that it operates like a sixth sense that they can instinctively trust and react to in the heat of battle.

Then you've got your average space-thug. They can't control their power. All they can do, it seems, is "surface" it, like Piccolo Daimao first mentioned. This particular method of "powering up" is more about just how much effort they're putting into battle than anything else. They're not actually generating more power, or opening up power they'd held in reserve, or anything like that. They're just "getting pumped up for battle."

Then for measuring and detecting ki, these guys just use scouters, which can both track someone's location and give an accurate number to their power. We all know how those work.

Now where it gets interesting is how these different methods all intersect. Someone who can only "surface" their power is going to be at a disadvantage to someone who can actually freely control it. The ki controller is going to be able to decieve and hide from both scouters and ki sensers, which is obviously a huge advantage. Surfacing your ki, however, isn't going to change anything from the POV of a scouter. Vegeta and Nappa would always read at 18,000 and 4000.

However, surfacing ki does have one advantage, albeit a small one, over natural ki sensers. This is what the original topic harks to, and the biggest point I want to make. Apparently, it can be difficult for a natural ki-senser to accurately judge someone's power unless they're going all-out and actually using that power. We see this not only with Nappa and Vegeta, but other examples later in the series as well.

We've got 1st-form Freeza's power not being fully grasped until he "powers up" to fight Vegeta's entourage. We've got Perfect Cell not realizing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's superiority over him until he's on the ground bleeding from the kid's blows (and Gohan likewise getting his arm critically injured after underestimating "Super Perfect" Cell). We've got nobody being sure if Super Saiyan 3 Goku could have defeated Fat Boo or not. I'm sure there's tons of more potential examples, but those should be enough to illustrate the idea.

So from the looks of it, it really can be hard for a natural ki-senser to get a feel for someone's true power unless that power is made obvious. Sensing ki naturally is usually a huge advantage and soundly superior over using scouters in almost every way. But this particular little aspect of it seems to be a bit of a downside, and can get you in trouble sometimes.

Like I said, it's all a very interesting topic. You've got 2 different types of feats, each with 2 different methods, and those 4 points end up criss-crossing in some very fascinating ways.



Let me wrap this up with an old analogy I've been using for this particular topic since, like, forever. Imagine that someone's amount of ki is represented by their muscles. Most people in the universe wear short-sleeved t-shirts.

Judging someone's strength with a scouter is the equivalent of them having a sticky note on their foreheads which lists exactly how much they can bench-press. Natural ki-sensing, on the other hand, is like simply guessing how strong someone is just by their looks. Even while they're wearing their t-shirt, you can still see their arms and neck and probably take a good guess at their power.

"Surfacing" your ki, what we see Nappa, Vegeta, and the like do, is simply a matter of taking off the t-shirt and flexing. Natural ki-sensers now finally have a much more accurate depiction of your physiology compared to themselves and others. Otherwise, nothing's actually different. Your muscles aren't bigger, they just look bigger. But the sticky note hasn't moved, and the number on it hasn't changed.

Controlling and masking your ki, on the other hand, is a lot different. That's like swapping out your standard short-sleeved shirt for a baggy long-sleeved turtleneck, and donning a hat to hide your sticky note. Now nobody's sure if you even have any muscles at all until you rip it all off and flex like everyone else.

This makes more sense than anything else I've heard.

[Insertclevername]

Can we just make a holy script of Kaboom's theories now?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Awesome theory. Though I still don't see Nappa at 4.000. When he calmed down, his hits clashed with Goku's hits, both Goku & Nappa dodged a hit, and then their ki blasts clashed in a close range, with neither of them taking any damage, and Goku saying that it would take forever. Then, we see them flying at around even speeds. So, I don't think that Nappa is as strong as Goku, but I also don't think that Nappa is very far from Goku.

[mAcChaos]

It just doesn't make sense if Goku is over 8000. That's a 50% difference in power.

It's not like Nappa ever got a hard reading from a Scouter in the series, so we don't know how strong he actually was except by how he was acting. He probably just didn't "flex" as much until Goku showed up.

[TheGmGoken]

It just doesn't make sense if Goku is over 8000. That's a 50% difference in power.

You would think with a Power level of 8000 with Nappa at 4000. You would think GOku could do to Nappa what he did with Kaioken. I mean that's how wide the gap is if he's 4000.

[Gaffer Tape]

Read a bit of the link. So, if what you're saying is accurate, the reason why the Z Fighters panicked, froze, and subsequently got wiped out was because Nappa flexed his power level of 4000, though all the Z Fighters could already tell that he was at 4000?

Imagine someone is pointing a big, scary knife at you. It's quite an impressive knife. You're intimidated.

Then he takes that knife and slices a deer carcass clean in half with it. It's the same knife. Nothing about it has changed. It hasn't become a stronger knife. But you're a lot more intimidated now that you've seen what it can do.

Nappa is said to be unable to change his battle power. But he can certainly show what he can do with it.

[RandomGuy96]

This is the first time I have heard of surfacing ki.... Stop making things up to have that 4000 BP as his maximum. It doesn't make sense.

Piccolo's quote can't be more clearer, they both were suppressed.

And Nappa's and Vegeta's quotes can't be any clearer. They can't suppress themselves. They're shocked by the Earthlings' ability to change their power levels AT ALL.

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

Note how he didn't say "They're just standing around, when they actually power up to fight it'll go up to their standard battle power like every other person in the universe including us".

Chapter: 223 (DBZ 29), P8.1-3, P10.4
Context: Vegeta was astonished at how the Earthlings could raise their powers. This time it was through Gohan’s Masenko attack.
Kuririn: “Is that G…Goku’s son…!? Wh…what an incredible ki…!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P14.2-5
Context: More of Kui mistakenly thinking Vegeta’s power has declined.
Kui: “Looks like you’ve gotten worse. With that battle power, you have no chance of winning.”
Vegeta: “Did you call us rivals? Kukkukkuku…Well then, I’ll show you something…An interesting thing that I learned from the locals when I went to Earth…[ ] How to control my battle power!”

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

All that says is that Nappa's ki got easier to sense. Ki sensing skills seem to be crap 'round this time. Remember when everyone failed in sensing Raditz?

Nappa's BP was 4,000. Done. I think that's too high though, when considering the Earthlings' feats against him.