Did the Daizenshuu overrate Nappa?

[ZombieVito]

I'm going to take this opportunity to once again pimp the never-printed-again 4500 number for Nappa from an old Movie 3 mini-guide. How do y'all feel about that one? Would that small but vital boost putting him a little over half of Goku's power instead of a little under it make any personal difference?

Still not enough to explain Goku's & Nappa's even fight.

Okay, I gotta ask; what was so "even" about their fight? I'm flipping through my manga volume and all I'm seeing is Gokuu constantly one-up Nappa at every turn. Nappa never landed a single hit on him. The only time he ever comes close to hurting Gokuu was with the explosion technique, his fury of punches and his mouth cannon; all of which fail in actually hurting Gokuu. I guess the his barrage of physical attacks make them look on par but that's one panel and Gokuu doesn't really look like he's taking this fight that seriously before Nappa threatens Kuririn & Gohan. All he's doing is just dodging his attacks after Vegeta tells him to calm down. Even before he gets Kaio-Ken'd, Nappa is pretty beat up whereas Gokuu is perfectly unharmed; only sweated once since he was surprised by Nappa's mouth cannon.

Not to mention Vegeta's confidence that Nappa (if he calmed down) could beat Goku. So NOPE that 4000 BP still doesn't make sense.

Who's to say that Saiyan's can have unreasonable expectations and confidence in their men. I mean, Nappa was able to pull off some surprises in his fight with Gokuu. It wouldn't be that crazy to imagine he could possibly pull off some victory. Slim chance? Yes. Impossible? It's up in the air.

These fights aren't just comparing numbers and calling it a day. There's a lot more to consider in a fight other than someone's battle power. Techniques. Ingenuity. Attitude. Wang size.

Nope, Goku tried to kick Nappa and missed. It wasn't that even but it sure looked close. So close that Goku himself said it could last forever. Hell even Vegeta said that too.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 9&page=133

And lol, Nappa knew Goku was over double his BP and still decided to fight, hes an idiot then. At least Vegeta with the Ginyu force knew he was going to die and didn't want to fight.

That 4000 BP still doesn't make sense.

[Insertclevername]

"This can take forever" Nappa's a beast with some crazy durability. It's a factor not particularly related to one's battle power.

And yes, we all know that you think Nappa being 4000 makes no sense. You've said it in every response you've made so far. Reiterating your stance like it's the word of God doesn't make your argument any more right than any other.

[ZombieVito]

How can being durable make you beat someone twice as strong as you? Recoome was durable and he got one shotted by Goku, who isn't even twice is power.

And nice one not addressing the other point I made. Goku couldn't hit Nappa once he calmed himself.

That's a plothole if Nappa is at 4000 BP.

[Insertclevername]

Recoome doesn't have an official Battle Power, however most fans speculate that he's about 40,000 or so. If I'm not mistaken, Gokuu was 90,000. That's more than twice. Even if you throw those numbers out the window, you can't act like everyone's durability is the same. Nappa could have been more durable to Recoome in their own respective scale (like how an ant is "stronger" than a human in it's own respective scale). Durability isn't some number like a Battle Power.

Gokuu never made a move on Nappa once he calmed down. He was being entirely defensive. All he was doing was dodging his Nappa's attacks and/or countering them. If anything, Gokuu was encouraging Nappa with comments like "That was much better".

I don't believe it's a plot hole.

[mAcChaos]

Well... it's only a plot hole if you take the Daizenshuu's word for it in this case.

[Insertclevername]

Well... it's only a plot hole if you take the Daizenshuu's word for it in this case.

I'm not familiar with the Daizenshuu. What do they say?

[Rocketman]

It's only a plot hole if you think ~*~*~*~*~*power levels*~*~*~*~*~ are everything.

[ZombieVito]

Recoome doesn't have an official Battle Power, however most fans speculate that he's about 40,000 or so. If I'm not mistaken, Gokuu was 90,000. That's more than twice. Even if you throw those numbers out the window, you can't act like everyone's durability is the same. Nappa could have been more durable to Recoome in their own respective scale (like how an ant is "stronger" than a human in it's own respective scale). Durability isn't some number like a Battle Power.

Gokuu never made a move on Nappa once he calmed down. He was being entirely defensive. All he was doing was dodging his Nappa's attacks and/or countering them. If anything, Gokuu was encouraging Nappa with comments like "That was much better".

I don't believe it's a plot hole.

Goku was not at full power when facing Recoome and the rest. Even Ginyu says a BP of 60K is capable of one shotting them. Ginyu was fighting Goku with that BP in mind.

And Goku did make a move and missed. He's faster than Nappa to evade his attacks but not fast enough to hit him? Plothole.

For comparison sake compare the battle with Goku vs Burter and Jeice. Did that looked the same as Nappa vs Goku? No.

The later looked even. The former was a slaughter.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku laughed off Nappa's blast in the early part of their battle, easily erasing it with a kiai.

...and later thinks Nappa's ultimate technique would've been trouble for him had he not been able to stop it with his attack, while also believing Nappa should've took some damage from his Kame-Hame-Ha. So, either Nappa was much stronger than people would like to admit, or his attack was beyond his normal Battle Power. Even when taking Battle Power out of the equation, it just seems odd for someone to be that capable against someone they're only half as strong as.

[Kamiccolo9]

And Goku did make a move and missed. He's faster than Nappa to evade his attacks but not fast enough to hit him? Plothole.

Are you serious? I guess Krillin being able to evade Freeza and Dodoria is a plothole as well.

[Insertclevername]

Yes, Nappa was barely able dodge one kick. Gokuu was able to counter his ultimate move with a non charged Kamehameha. Those aren't even equal feats.

[FoolsGil]

I think the only thing we can agree on is Nappa is broken. His abilities and power fluctuates with each page, chapter, episode, whatever:

For example, how could Nappa tank the Kikoho, Chaozu's SD, and the Masenko-Two of which he didn't see coming-when he took damage from a punches to the face by Krillin and Piccolo? Why didn't he no sell those?

If the gap between Goku and Nappa is 4000, and the fight would've taken forever if Goku didn't use the Kaioken, how come the other Z Fighters couldn't keep up with Nappa?
Chaozu at a Power level of 610 had a power level gap of 3,390. so that fight should have taken forever, logically.
We don't have accurate numbers for Krillin and Tenshinhan but I place them at 1500 and 1800 respectively, making their gap to Nappa 2500 and 2200 respectively. They should have done far better against Nappa than Nappa would have against Goku.
I think we all agree that Piccolo's power level is 3500? Well at a 500 pl gap, Vegeta would have been forced to step in.

Read a bit of the link. So, if what you're saying is accurate, the reason why the Z Fighters panicked, froze, and subsequently got wiped out was because Nappa flexed his power level of 4000, though all the Z Fighters could already tell that he was at 4000?

Imagine someone is pointing a big, scary knife at you. It's quite an impressive knife. You're intimidated.

Then he takes that knife and slices a deer carcass clean in half with it. It's the same knife. Nothing about it has changed. It hasn't become a stronger knife. But you're a lot more intimidated now that you've seen what it can do.

Nappa is said to be unable to change his battle power. But he can certainly show what he can do with it.

That does make sense, big scary man with a knife, and in turn Nappa flexing, if his power level is at 4000. But At one point Piccolo stops being afraid of Nappa's knife. Right around the time Nappa is getting ready to finish off Tenshinhan...If Nappa is at 4000, Piccolo at 3500, Piccolo would've rushed Nappa then, going into a huge battle because they are just so much closer to strength that it could go either way, not knocking him into Krillin, Krillin knocking him into Gohan in the hopes of injuring Nappa.

Of course because his power fluctuates, if his Pl is 7000-8000, not 4000, how come he couldn't take a punch to the face? All in all Nappa is all over the place

[ZombieVito]

And Goku did make a move and missed. He's faster than Nappa to evade his attacks but not fast enough to hit him? Plothole.

Are you serious? I guess Krillin being able to evade Freeza and Dodoria is a plothole as well.

He never did that... Freeza didn't even trowed a punch at him...

[TheGmGoken]

Chaozu at a Power level of 610 had a power level gap of 3,390. so that fight should have taken forever, logically.
We don't have accurate numbers for Krillin and Tenshinhan but I place them at 1500 and 1800 respectively, making their gap to Nappa 2500 and 2200 respectively. Piccolo at 3500, Piccolo would've rushed Nappa then, going into a huge battle because they are just so much closer to strength that it could go either way

Chaozu isn't 50% of Nappa through.
Krillin isn't 50% of Nappa
Tien isn't 50% of Nappa.

Piccolo had BAD and I mean BAD luck. Seriously. He went for his tail and got caught off guard then he had to save Gohan and died.

He never did that... Freeza didn't even trowed a punch at him...

Freeza throw Ki at him in his first form.

[RandomGuy96]

@Fools: True, but 99% of his feats lay far closer to the 4,000 side. He can't even touch Goku- hell he can't he even see the movements of someone at 5,000. A power level of 5,000 causes him to shit himself. His ultimate attack is brushed away like nothing and he's beaten around like a ragdoll, with his opponent treating him like a child the whole time. The Earthlings, on the other hand, get in several good shots on him that did decent damage. A single punch from Piccolo left him bleeding. One hit from Gohan left a gash in his head.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza throw Ki at him in his first form.

Where? I can't find that scene at all.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Freeza didn't attack them in the Manga.

[RandomGuy96]

And Goku did make a move and missed. He's faster than Nappa to evade his attacks but not fast enough to hit him? Plothole.

Are you serious? I guess Krillin being able to evade Freeza and Dodoria is a plothole as well.

He never did that... Freeza didn't even trowed a punch at him...

Krillin still evaded Nappa with ease and actually HIT and hurt him (twice), despite that difference being more than x2. Krillin was 1,770. Heck, had it not been for Vegeta's interference, Krillin would have won that fight.

[Kamiccolo9]

Freeza didn't attack them in the Manga.

My mistake. My point about Dodoria still stands. Dodoria is over 10x stronger than Krillin and Gohan, yet they both manage to run for a while without Dodoria instantly catching them. Goku manages to dodge at least one of Raditz' attacks, and he's only a third, at most, of his strength.

And as for taking damage, Goku at 3 million takes hits from Freeza at 60 million. Even when he's using Kaioken, he's still taking hits from a guy twice as strong as him. Vegeta survives hits from Fat Buu, who later goes on to trade blows with SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegeta survives hits from Pure Buu, who is 400x stronger than him. Goku keeps fighting after having a hole blown through his chest, and even fights during a heart attack. Saiyans are tough, Nappa isn't an exception.

[ZombieVito]

He can't even touch Goku

Neither can Goku when Nappa is calmed down/powered up.

hell he can't he even see the movements of someone at 5,000.

Goku never fought at 5,000. Nappa did fight at 4000 BP against him at 8000 BP.

A power level of 5,000 causes him to shit himself.

Vegeta also got worried that order Nappa to kill all of them. Doesn't mean much to be honest.

His ultimate attack is brushed away like nothing

Like nothing? Goku actually sweat there, if he haven't counterattacked he would have been seriously damaged. No way he could have tanked that.

and he's beaten around like a ragdoll, with his opponent treating him like a child the whole time.

That all ends when Nappa powers up.

The Earthlings, on the other hand, get in several good shots on him that did decent damage. A single punch from Piccolo left him bleeding. One hit from Gohan left a gash in his head.

This actually makes me put him at 3,000. Gohan's blast shouldn't have that effect on him if hes at 4,000.

Krillin still evaded Nappa with ease and actually HIT and hurt him (twice), despite that difference being more than x2. Krillin was 1,770. Heck, had it not been for Vegeta's interference, Krillin would have won that fight.

Krillin only hit Nappa when he was distracted. And to be fair Nappa was just turning himself up and launched the punch without even looking. How can that be the same case when he actually was fighting head on with Goku?