Did the Daizenshuu overrate Nappa?

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku's having fun fighting, Nappa isn't. It isn't that odd to think he wanted to take him out rather quickly--especially after Goku made a joke. Both were shown smiling after the even bout. With as quick as the attack came out, he probably was expecting Goku to be too vulnerable to counter at that distance.

That's the point though. Goku's having fun, and he's even talking down to Nappa. He's treating him like a kid.

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P5.2
Context: after fighting with ‘calm’ Nappa
Goku: “Heh! You’ve really gotten serious, haven’cha?!”

Nappa's only smiling right before he fires his blast. Look at the panel above that, where they split up. He's not smiling there.

And then, you have Vegeta telling Nappa he's got this, but when you see what Vegeta's thinking to himself, it doesn't give that impression at all. Nappa says that Goku is bluffing about wanting to fight Goku at full strength, and Vegeta thinks
"No, he has power to spare...and utter confidence in himself." Vegeta knows that Nappa doesn't stand a chance.

[TheGmGoken]

The fact that Goku didn't tanked Nappa's last attack speaks wonders. If Nappa can't change is power level then he can't amp his attacks. That attack shouldn't had been a risk for Goku. He tanked one just like it earlier, by screaming.

It was also at point blank range. So who knows maybe point blank range doesn't give you a chance to get your defense ready

You don't need to put defense when tanking, just look at SSJ Goku's tanks against 50% Freeza. That's almost the same gap (Have Freeza at 46.66% SSJ Goku there).

Tanking is inconstant. Zarbon should have been tanked by Vegeta with that logic. Dodoria should have tanked Vegeta with that logic.

[FoolsGil]

No quote than your statement on me switching math(s) is invalid.

Yeah you won. Good for you.

But I got a math problem. Vegeta easily killed Dodoria when Vegeta was at 24000 and Dodoria was at 21000. After being destroyed and getting a zenkai, Vegeta killed Zarbon when he was at 34000 and Zarbon was at 31000. If all it takes is being 50% lower than your opponent to make a fight last forever, how come Vegeta cut them down in minutes when the gap with Dodoria was 13% and the gap with Zarbon is 9%?

My point is, no matter what you come up with to answer, is if Vegeta can easily top those cretins at those percentages, there is no way Nappa could be 50% of Goku's full power and not be destroyed even quicker. If Dodoria took 30 seconds, Nappa would have logically take one second if his power level is only 4000.

[RandomGuy96]

Also, that's again incorrect. 50% Freeza was 40% of Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

No quote than your statement on me switching math(s) is invalid.

Yeah you won. Good for you.

But I got a math problem. Vegeta easily killed Dodoria when Vegeta was at 24000 and Dodoria was at 21000. After being destroyed and getting a zenkai, Vegeta killed Zarbon when he was at 34000 and Zarbon was at 31000. If all it takes is being 50% lower than your opponent to make a fight last forever, how come Vegeta cut them down in minutes when the gap with Dodoria was 13% and the gap with Zarbon is 9%?

My point is, no matter what you come up with to answer, is if Vegeta can easily top those cretins at those percentages, there is no way Nappa could be 50% of Goku's full power and not be destroyed even quicker. If Dodoria took 30 seconds, Nappa would have logically take one second if his power level is only 4000.

Like I said above, Goku at 3 million was surviving hits from Freeza at 60 million. Base Vegeta was taking hits from Pure Buu, who is around 400x stronger than him. Saiyans are tough.

[ZombieVito]

Also, that's again incorrect. 50% Freeza was 40% of Goku.

That BS 120 mil BP makes no sense. I don't take any Daiz PL, they have errors like no tomorrow.

And Dodoria had to be over 40K to tank a 24K Vegeta.

[TheGmGoken]

No quote than your statement on me switching math(s) is invalid.

Yeah you won. Good for you.

But I got a mat

h

problem. Vegeta easily killed Dodoria when Vegeta was at 24000 and Dodoria was at 21000. After being destroyed and getting a zenkai, Vegeta killed Zarbon when he was at 34000 and Zarbon was at 31000. If all it takes is being 50% lower than your opponent to make a fight last forever, how come Vegeta cut them down in minutes when the gap with Dodoria was 13% and the gap with Zarbon is 9%?

My point is, no matter what you come up with to answer, is if Vegeta can easily top those cretins at those percentages, there is no way Nappa could be 50% of Goku's full power and not be destroyed even quicker. If Dodoria took 30 seconds, Nappa would have logically take one second if his power level is only 4000.

Did you here Vegeta's reason on why it's so easy?



They got lazy. So most likely suffer from it. Their defense and durability as well.

Code: Select all

And Dodoria had to be over 40K to tank a 24K Vegeta.

But didn't someone say taking requires no defense. Well since their power is so close then I guess Zarbon could tank Vegeta and vice verisa. Dodoria should be able to tank Vegeta since their power is so close/=. Here the quote I'm debunking.

how come Vegeta cut them down in minutes when the gap with Dodoria was 13% and the gap with Zarbon is 9%?Nappa could be 50% of Goku's full power and not be destroyed even quicker. If Dodoria took 30 seconds, Nappa would have logically take one second if his power level is only 4000. You don't need to put defense when tanking,

You guys realize Akira Toriyama got RID of power levels for a reason. People been saying they're BULLSHIT before TFS said the same thing.

[RandomGuy96]

Yuuki loss + exposing his back. And Dodoria was 22,000. He's just pathetic.

That BS 120 mil BP makes no sense.  I don't take any Daiz PL, they have errors like no tomorrow. 

They make perfect sense. You just don't like them because they don't fit these weird little formulas you make in your head, where Fighter A has to be x% of Fighter B to do (feat), when the author didn't care nearly so much. In fact he seemingly went out of his way to contradict the idea of specific power gaps determining a fight.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We can't see Goku's face as they break away, but the previous page has Goku with a serious face while he's exchanging blows with Nappa, so he isn't all smiles.

Goku's amused at Nappa's sudden change in attitude and is confident because he still has the advantage. I don't think Nappa's as strong as Goku.

Goku's also sure Nappa's attack would've been capable of doing some real damage to him had he not stopped it with his own attack. He's also convinced Nappa should've taken some damage from his Kame-Hame-Ha and based on that, believes fighting Nappa will take forever. So we know Goku can't easily defeat Nappa without the Kaio-Ken, and we know Nappa has an attack that could potentially do good damage to Goku. That's why I don't think he's only half as strong as Goku.

[TheGmGoken]

We can't see Goku's face as they break away, but the previous page has Goku with a serious face while he's exchanging blows with Nappa, so he isn't all smiles.

When has Goku smiled while fighting? Especially when the Earth is on the line. As soon as the stopped he smiles AGAIN.

So we know Goku can't easily defeat Nappa without the Kaio-Ken, and we know Nappa has an attack that could potentially do good damage to Goku. That's why I don't think he's only half as strong as Goku.

Nappa got GREAT durability.
The attack is point blank.

I used to be on the side that Nappa > 4000. But now I'm leading towards the side that he was. Goku destroyed and I mean DESTROYED King Piccolo in round 2. Yes Piccolo got some hits in but overall Goku was kicking some GREEN ASS. Yet their official power levels have them being even in power levels.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He's shown smiling after Vegeta knocked him around and smiling after Vegeta knocks him out of Kaio-Ken. He even admits he's excited. The fate of the planet was definitely on the line at that point. I don't see how smiling at Nappa really matters here. Goku always smiles, but his focused expression shows he was putting effort into the fight. Nappa was giving him a good fight, and like he says on the previous page, that was what he wanted.

Better durability doesn't suddenly boost your fighting ability. Don't see why the range would matter if the attack is weak sauce.

[TheGmGoken]

He's shown smiling after Vegeta knocked him around and smiling after Vegeta knocks him out of Kaio-Ken. He even admits he's excited. The fate of the planet was definitely on the line at that point.

He's smiling AFTER combat. I mean during fighting sequence. He was mostly talking around that time.

Better durability doesn't suddenly boost your fighting ability. Don't see why the range would matter if the attack is weak sauce.

See Rikum vs Vegeta(Fighting ability and range of attack), Cell attacked by Vegeta(Cell braced as the attack got closer), and look at Freeza vs Kaioken x20

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta knocked "warming-up" Reacoom around, hit him with a direct Chi-blast (that was weak), and his Chi didn't go down one bit. His durability allowed him to leave himself open more than usual. The situation is also different because Reacoom was much stronger than Vegeta, so his fighting ability wouldn't matter much as he held a good enough advantage. Nappa went from being unable to see Goku to exchanging blows with him. He went from swinging at the air to being able to fight better just by calming down.

Cell was able to brace himself defensively, but the Final Flash was an amplified attack that was more powerful than Vegeta's actual Battle Power. He's probably not 2x stronger than Vegeta at that level, but if he is, the Final Flash could possibly decrease that much of a difference. Nappa's 4,000 at the most, so his attack wouldn't be that powerful, and should be about as effective as Vegeta's attack was against Reacoom: enough to jack Goku's clothes up and nothing more. Goku was around Freeza after using Kaio-Ken x20, which explains why his Kame-Hame-Ha would be able to damage Freeza a little bit, even with time to defend against it.

Furthermore, if we're using the Daizenshuu's levels entirely, it means Piccolo rivals Nappa when we're shown that he doesn't even come close to it.

[RandomGuy96]

We're shown no such thing.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gotta be more specific.

Do you think Piccolo is 3,500 against Nappa?

[TheGmGoken]

Furthermore, if we're using the Daizenshuu's levels entirely, it means Piccolo rivals Nappa when we're shown that he doesn't even come close to it

We was NOT shown that. Piccolo just got unlucky. The battle was pretty much PIccolo grabs tail thinking he was correc tthen he fails and get 1 shot unexpectedly. Piccolo then had to save Gohan then dying. Piccolo really never had the chance to fight.

Cell was able to brace himself defensively, but the Final Flash was an amplified attack that was more powerful than Vegeta's actual Battle Power.

He didn't brace himself with the FInal Flash. I was talking about Super Perfect Cell bracing himself from Vegeta attacking him. Vegeta was at least 3x weaker.

Nappa's 4,000 at the most, so his attack wouldn't be that powerful,

Point Blank Range. You have to brace yourself. Besides Rikum was clearly hurt. He just fights through the pain.

[RandomGuy96]

Gotta be more specific.

Do you think Piccolo is 3,500 against Nappa?

Yes.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We was NOT shown that. Piccolo just got unlucky. The battle was pretty much PIccolo grabs tail thinking he was correc tthen he fails and get 1 shot unexpectedly. Piccolo then had to save Gohan then dying. Piccolo really never had the chance to fight.

Piccolo couldn't open Nappa up without having someone help him. He never had the confidence to attack Nappa, and pretty much says he has no confidence in beating him. He says he never dreamed that there was someone of Nappa's level, so it's very unlikely the opposition is barely stronger than him. More like a lot stronger when you take everything he says about Nappa into consideration. Had it not been for Vegeta stopping Nappa for the 3 hr break, he would've crushed both Piccolo and Krillin. Look how scared they were when he started flying towards them. If Piccolo rivals Nappa, he's strong enough to make it a respectable fight. As we see, green man has some trouble with the elbow.

He didn't brace himself with the FInal Flash. I was talking about Super Perfect Cell bracing himself from Vegeta attacking him. Vegeta was at least 3x weaker.

He does. Just look at him after Vegeta tells him he's too much of a coward to take his attack directly. He smiles and goes from having his arms crossed to clenching his hands and putting them at his side, as if he were readying himself to tank the attack. Super Perfect Cell pretty much goes right into Vegeta's attack, but we know the attack hadn't a chance of doing much to Cell in any fashion.

Point Blank Range. You have to brace yourself. Besides Rikum was clearly hurt. He just fights through the pain.

Stunned? Maybe. He's not clearly hurt because the attack really did nothing outside of destroying his uniform and some superficial damage.

Yes.

No way. Piccolo's expression when Gohan sends Nappa flying shows that the kids kick was more significant than anything Piccolo had up his sleeve at that point. Piccolo says Gohan's stronger than himself as long as his mind is right. Highly unlikely he's stronger than the brat, much less the enraged brat with a Masenko.

[RandomGuy96]

Facial expressions don't really mean anything. He could just be shocked that Gohan was able to do that; that doesn't necessarily mean Piccolo himself can't. He says he CAN do that as long as his mind is right. He never said that Gohan in that exact fight will be stronger than him.

[TheGmGoken]

Piccolo couldn't open Nappa up without having someone help him. He never had the confidence to attack Nappa, and pretty much says he has no confidence in beating him.

Did he fight him 1 on 1? No. He was going by what he was sensing. Just like how Goku realize Freeza can't aim.

He says he never dreamed that there was someone of Nappa's level, so it's very unlikely the opposition is barely stronger than him. More like a lot stronger when you take everything he says about Nappa into consideration

Once again he's going by Ki. Let me guess since Piccolo never said Vegeta was something he cant dream of that means Nappa > Vegeta. Also because Piccolo didn't say anything about Vegeta that means Piccolo > Vegeta. This is just like Gray Boo,

If Piccolo rivals Nappa, he's strong enough to make it a respectable fight. As we see, green man has some trouble with the elbow.

Vegeta rivaled Dodoria at first. What's your point. Dodoria didn't put up a fight. Once again that elbow was unexpected. He seriously thought his tail was a weakness.

He does. Just look at him after Vegeta tells him he's too much of a coward to take his attack directly. He smiles and goes from having his arms crossed to clenching his hands and putting them at his side, as if he were readying himself to tank the attack.

He was making himself open to attack. Letting his guard down.

Super Perfect Cell pretty much goes right into Vegeta's attack, but we know the attack hadn't a chance of doing much to Cell in any fashion.

He didn't go into the atttack. He stands there and brace himself for the attack. Then he stood there after 5 minutes of Vegeta's attacking.

Stunned? Maybe. He's not clearly hurt because the attack really did nothing outside of destroying his uniform and some superficial damage.

Rikum is a fighting tank. Seriously. Only way to keep him down is to just K.O his ass.