Did the Daizenshuu overrate Nappa?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo can't because he never did anything close to that level against Nappa when he was off-guard. If anything, that makes it even more unlikely that he's on Gohan's level. If Piccolo rivals Nappa, why can't he open him up without assistance from Krillin?

Not once does Piccolo land a straight up hit against Nappa, yet he rivals him? We're shown no such thing.

[ZombieVito]

What cracks me up is that they defend Freeza's 120 mil but the gap between him and SSJ Goku is bigger than the one of Piccolo and Nappa and yet Freeza battled more evenly than them.

lol Daiz.

[TheGmGoken]

Piccolo can't because he never did anything close to that level against Nappa when he was off-guard. If anything, that makes it even more unlikely that he's on Gohan's level. If Piccolo rivals Nappa, why can't he open him up without assistance from Krillin?

Not once does Piccolo land a straight up hit against Nappa, yet he rivals him? We're shown no such thing.

It was shown that the Z fighter clearly out skill Nappa. In fact both Piccolo and Krillin got hits in. Notice they did NOT distract him before this. They both hit him done and Gohan failed. Piccolo is going by what he sense. Not skill. Say Goku went by sense and not skill. Goku woul have been shot by Freeza's Eye beams and died. Look at that end of Freeza Arc.

Okay he doesn't hit Nappa because he;s the most unlucky man in the Saiyan Arc.

What cracks me up is that they defend Freeza's 120 mil but the gap between him and SSJ Goku is bigger than the one of Piccolo and Nappa and yet Freeza battled more evenly than them.

Freeza is a MUCH better fighter than Nappa. Even through Power means 99% of the battle. There is still times where skill means something.

[RandomGuy96]

What cracks me up is that they defend Freeza's 120 mil but the gap between him and SSJ Goku is bigger than the one of Piccolo and Nappa and yet Freeza battled more evenly than them.

lol Daiz.

The problem with that statement is that Nappa and Piccolo never actually fought. So no, there was no battle. And you're also assuming that these little percentage formulas you come up with mean something, or that specific power gaps determine the outcome in the fight. Toriyama laughs at that idea by portraying power levels as inconsistently as he possibly can.

And Freeza being 120 million is just common sense when you scale from the kaio-ken and the x50 multiplier Toriyama acknowledged.

[ZombieVito]

So you have Goku's Kamehameha with no amp at all? lol.

Freeza needs to be over 60 mil in order to hold off the Kamehameha, if not then it would have gone through.

And no, he didn't go 70% there. No power up was noted or implied.

[RandomGuy96]

Logically it shouldn't. If the kaio-ken and Kamehameha multipliers stacked, then Freeza somehow smacked away an attack twice as strong as him without dying. Oh, and Vegeta survived an attack 4 times stronger than him with no problems. The Daizenshuu seems to agree with that idea, as it lists the kaio-ken Kamehamehas as just Goku's base level times the level of kaio-ken- the amp doesn't stack. And seriously, cut the "lol" shit.

Freeza needs to be over 60 mil in order to hold off the Kamehameha, if not then it would have gone through.

Evidence that you can't block an attack that's just as strong as you? Hell, Piccolo TANKED an attack stronger than him, and Freeza can't block one?

And no, he didn't go 70% there. No power up was noted or implied.

Him deflecting the Kamehameha confirmed to Goku that he was using 50%, so yeah, it was implied.

[ZombieVito]

Twice?

Son Goku
~ Weakened By Freeza: 2,500,000
~ Kaiōken x20: 50,000,000
~ Kaiōken x20 Kamehameha (*1.5): 75,000,000


Freeza
~ 50% of Full Power: 70,000,000
~ Kikō (*1.2): 84,000,000

Amped Kamehameha works just fine. It wasn't fully charged like the one against Vegeta.

And Freeza actually needed a Ki blast to get rid of the attack. There's an explosion drawn there.

[Fionordequester]

Personally, the way I always interpreted it was that, in the Goku vs. Vegeta fight, Goku was hurt so badly by his x4 Kamehameha that he only kept it up for as long as he needed to in order to stop the blast, and let it get drastically weaker the moment it hit Vegeta (hence how small it became once it hit Vegeta, as well as Goku's comment about Vegeta "Not being weak enough to be done in by something like that" remark. Makes sense if Goku knew most of the power behind the blast was lost by the time it got to Vegeta).

And then, in the Goku vs. Frieza fight, I always thought that it WAS implied that Frieza powered up right before the Kamehameha hit just because of Goku's reaction ("SO HE WASN'T BLUFFING! HE REALLY IS STRONGER THAN HE'S LETTING ON!").

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

My bad if I skip some stuff. Kinda tired.

Did he fight him 1 on 1? No. He was going by what he was sensing. Just like how Goku realize Freeza can't aim.

What was he sensing from Nappa other than his raw power? Isn't that how they often learn how they compare to their opponents, aside from fighting them? Goku realizing Freeza can't aim? Are you talking about when he throws the Kienzan's at him or something else I'm not remembering?

Once again he's going by Ki. Let me guess since Piccolo never said Vegeta was something he cant dream of that means Nappa > Vegeta. Also because Piccolo didn't say anything about Vegeta that means Piccolo > Vegeta. This is just like Gray Boo

Nope. Piccolo had yet to sense Vegeta because he didn't fight. That's one of the reasons why he assumed Vegeta was stronger because he was bossing Nappa around. Vegeta had yet to fight, therefore he couldn't really sense him. Well, he does sense him when he blows up that Cultivar and comments on his incredible power.

Vegeta rivaled Dodoria at first. What's your point. Dodoria didn't put up a fight. Once again that elbow was unexpected. He seriously thought his tail was a weakness.

Dodoria was lacking in the Yuuki area. He was scared once he saw that Vegeta surpassed him. Since these guys go strictly by the number, Vegeta's dominance makes sense.

It was shown that the Z fighter clearly out skill Nappa. In fact both Piccolo and Krillin got hits in. Notice they did NOT distract him before this. They both hit him done and Gohan failed. Piccolo is going by what he sense. Not skill. Say Goku went by sense and not skill. Goku woul have been shot by Freeza's Eye beams and died. Look at that end of Freeza Arc.

Tien was the distraction. Well, not intentionally. Nappa placed his focus on him, but Piccolo and Krillin intervened in a well timed attack to stop him. That was the plan.

Freeza's eye beams?

Okay he doesn't hit Nappa because he;s the most unlucky man in the Saiyan Arc.

Maybe.

But some (RandomGuy) often like to go by feats shown on-panel to determine who's the better/stronger fighter. In the Saiyan saga, the feats shown by both Piccolo and Gohan (and dialogue) make Gohan the unanimous victor by far. It might not be fair to green man, but that's what the story shows.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku realizing Freeza can't aim? Are you talking about when he throws the Kienzan's at him or something else I'm not remembering?

When he was shooting eyebeams. Goku learn he can't aim. He started fighting with skill after that.

Dodoria was lacking in the Yuuki area. He was scared once he saw that Vegeta surpassed him. Since these guys go strictly by the number, Vegeta's dominance makes sense.

They fight only with power. UNlike Nappa who have some fighting sense.

Freeza's eye beams?

Re watched Goku vs Freeza

. In the Saiyan saga, the feats shown by both Piccolo and Gohan (and dialogue) make Gohan the unanimous victor by far. It might not be fair to green man, but that's what the story shows.

Still makes Piccolo unlucky.

[Draken]

Wow guys, it's almost as if power levels aren't consistent!

[TheGmGoken]

Wow guys, it's almost as if power levels aren't consistent!

I already said that already and people still argue on it. I said

You guys realize Akira Toriyama got RID of power levels for a reason. People been saying they're BULLSHIT before TFS said the same thing.

[FoolsGil]

The problem with that statement is that Nappa and Piccolo never actually fought. So no, there was no battle. And you're also assuming that these little percentage formulas you come up with mean something, or that specific power gaps determine the outcome in the fight.

Weren't you also saying the same thing? And using numbers to prove your point as well?

Wow guys, it's almost as if power levels aren't consistent!

I already said that already and people still argue on it. I said

You guys realize Akira Toriyama got RID of power levels for a reason. People been saying they're BULLSHIT before TFS said the same thing.

Yeah you said it. Yet you still argued that Nappa's level is 4000 for this topic. Why would you guys defend something so strongly than reverse your positions by shouting 'lolz no point!'

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We know that when there is 50% difference between two fighters, the difference is huge. Just compare Goku's & Nappa's fight with Vegeta's (24.000) fights with Dodoria (22.000) & Zarbon(23.000). When Nappa calmed down, both he & Goku barely dodged each other's hits, and both of them clashed without a winner. Of course, Goku didn't have to fully charge his Kamehameha against Nappa's strongest attack, since Goku is stronger than Nappa. My point is that their difference isn't shown to being huge once Nappa calmed down.

[Insertclevername]

But it was still his strongest attack. I mean, Vegeta shot a Final Flash at Cell who was much stronger than him and did some serious damage. I doubt Cell could have pulled off a quick Kamehameha to counter that.

As I said before, Gokuu doesn't look like he's taking the fight 100% after Nappa calms down. He's pretty much just leading him on.

[Kaboom]

Wow guys, it's almost as if power levels aren't consistent!

I know, right?

Yeah you said it. Yet you still argued that Nappa's level is 4000 for this topic. Why would you guys defend something so strongly than reverse your positions by shouting 'lolz no point!'

The fact of the matter is that there's nothing wrong with Nappa's 4000 battle power BECAUSE power levels are not a consistent and precise system or the 100% end-all factor in battles. To proclaim that he "can't" do things because he's at less than X% of his opponent's power is wrong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As I said before, Gokuu doesn't look like he's taking the fight 100% after Nappa calms down. He's pretty much just leading him on.

But Goku wasn't holding back, since the scouter was reading over 8.000.

[ZombieVito]

As I said before, Gokuu doesn't look like he's taking the fight 100% after Nappa calms down. He's pretty much just leading him on.

But Goku wasn't holding back, since the scouter was reading over 8.000.

Besides you can't compare Nappa's blast with Vegeta's Final Flash, lol.

The Final Flash is immensely amped compared to it.

[Insertclevername]

As I said before, Gokuu doesn't look like he's taking the fight 100% after Nappa calms down. He's pretty much just leading him on.

But Goku wasn't holding back, since the scouter was reading over 8.000.

Let's say Nappa's attack was twice his battle power. It's either 8000, which is close to Gokuu's level; or it's 9000 if you go by the also "official" number of 4,500.

Besides you can't compare Nappa's blast with Vegeta's Final Flash, lol.

The Final Flash is immensely amped compared to Nappa's blast.

And Nappa's isn't amped up a lot as well? It is his best attack.

[hleV]

And Nappa's isn't amped up a lot as well? It is his best attack.

No, because Raditz (and possibly Vegeta, can't remember) was surprised at Earthlings' ability to increase their power through ki attacks.