Strength ranges for unstated characters - your opinion

[some_weirdGuy]

The babidi battle power thread got me thinking again about the other characters (mostly buu saga, but this is a thread for all if you feel like brining up any others), and where people would estimate certain characters whose power level is left ambiguous. Not so much the micro level stuff like 'is dabura stronger or weaker that perfect/super perfect cell', more wide scale, like where garlic jr sits compared to frieza and co.

However(!), rather than trying to give actual numbers, lets try and 'paint with a wide brush', only stating your opinion by comparing to other characters. That leaves it a little more open and voids getting bogged down in digits or zeroes that i find kinda muddy the mental models somewhat. after all, scouters already showed us just how misleading numbers can get


For myself, I tended to be inclined towards-

>Shin being roughly Android 17/'new fused kamicolo's' strength*

>Yakon being around Second Form Cell

>Pui pui was anywhere between Captain Ginyu to Frieza second form in strength(maybe all the way up to true form Frieza's lower percents, depending on where you think base vegeta would now sit).

>I put Kibito about the same as ballpark as Pui Pui's range.

>and like to think that Kibitoshin was anywhere from Dabura to Good Buu in strength ((which aligns with him still being outmatched by Super Buu))

Spoiler:

*unless his reference to the kais being able to defeat frieza in a single blow was referring to the others but not himself, in which case I'd also put him around pui pui's range, up to frieza strength, might explain why he thought pui pui was a dangerous, since him being 17 level should mean he alone could beat my pui pui estimate with ease, though again could just be down to being wary of babidi's tricks and caught a bit off guard by the saiyans confidence as a reason he didn't deal with pui pui himself.

[RandomGuy96]

Kaioshin being about as strong as Cell Games Goku.

Yakon being significantly weaker than Freeza- on par with his 70% power. Matches with where the base saiyans are said to be in BOG.

Pui Pui being in between first and second form Freeza.

Kibito being moderately weaker than base Gohan, as the Daizenshuu said.

Kibitoshin being low SS2 tier- in between Dabra and SS2 teen Gohan.

South Kaioshin being significantly weaker than Pure Buu, but still strong enough to put up a bit of a fight (like he did in the anime).

West Kaioshin, North Kaioshin, and Grand Kaioshin all being around the Buu Saga Super Saiyans (North = SS Gohan, Grand = SS Vegeta (pre-Majin), West = SS Goku), but much weaker than Dabra and SS2 Gohan.

SS3 Gogeta being about as strong as Buutenks.

[Stark the lone wolf]

Supreme Kai being as strong as 17
Dai Kai, West Kai, Northern Kai being as strong as 16
South Kai being as strong as USSJ Trunks
Gogeta being as strong as buutenks
Kibitoshin being ssj2 teen gohan level (elder kai indirectly stated vegeta was stronger than him)

[ZombieVito]

>Shin around USSJ Vegeta

>Yakon a little bit over 70% FP Freeza.

>Pui pui a little weaker than Kaioken x10 Goku.

> Kibito equal to kaioken x 20 Goku.

> KibitoShin stronger than FP Cell but weaker than his weighted state.

> North around Perfect Cell vs USSJ Vegeta.

> West equal than Cell games Piccolo.

> Fat Kaioshin equal than Buu saga Piccolo.

> South Kaioshin a bit weaker than SSJ Trunks Cell games.

> SSj3 Gogeta around Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed).

[TheGmGoken]

Kaioshin being about as strong as Cell Games Goku.
Yakon is about 3rd form Freeza or Freeza True form holding back
Pui Pui being is First Form Freeza
Kibito is Goku KKx2 Ginyu Arc(180,000)
Kibitoshin is SSJ2 Gohan power maybe weaker or a bit stronger
South Kaioshin is SSJ2 Goku power
SS3 Gogeta is Bootenks
Blind Boy Boo healed is around Super Perfect Cell

[some_weirdGuy]

I tend to think south kaioshin was about ssj3 goku strength, maybe a bit under
and daikaioh was about equal to good buu
the rest of the kais ranging between super vegeta(after exiting the RoSaT first time around) up to mastered super saiyan gohan (when against cell, not ssj2).

((a reason they didn't release the Z sword despite being strong enough: it's enchanted, so that no kai could ever lift it.))

Grand kai from the otherworld tourmanet filler arc use to be around super saiyan goku(during frieza), up to about android 16 in strength range. He has however slacked off somewhat by the otherworld tournament.

Pikuhan was around mastered super saiyan goku, ((he took out Cell so easily simply because he suckerpunched him and basically ended the fight before it could get heated up))

---
Mecha frieza was about super saiyan Goku's strength(during frieza), and didn't require as much charging/bulking up and stuff to access his '100%' like before.

King Cold was around true form frieza's lower percents. (and While it's cool to imagine he's just second form, Cooler's design makes me suspect he was actually true form and less of a fighter than his sons)

Imperfect cell before abosrbing anyone at all was roughly super saiyan Goku's strength(during frieza).

[RandomGuy96]

Cooler being a bit stronger than SS Trunks (Mecha) and SS Goku (Namek)

King Cold being around 70% of Mecha Freeza, and being at full power and in his 'final form' when Trunks killed him.

Mecha Freeza being about as strong as SS Goku (Namek), maybe a tiny bit weaker or a tiny bit stronger (I usually lean towards the former).

Pikkon being about as strong as Buu Saga SS Vegeta (pre-Majin). With Burning Shoot, a kaio-ken-like technique, he becomes stronger than any of the Super Saiyan 2s.

Bojack's henchmen all being a bit stronger than the Cell Juniors.

Full Power Bojack himself being significantly weaker than the Buu Saga SS Goku, and one-shot material to Full Power Perfect Cell.

LSS Broly Movie 8 being slightly weaker than Bojack. LSS Broly (Movie 10) being slightly weaker than Super Perfect Cell. LSS Bio-Broly being the same strength as Movie 8 LSS Broly.

Janemba being moderately stronger than SS3 Goku, but still one-shot material to the giants of the Fusion Saga.

Mr. Buu being slightly weaker than SS3 Goku, slightly stronger than South Kaioshin, and moderately stronger than a hypothetical LSS3 Broly.

The base saiyans in the Buu Saga all being around the 50-70% Freeza range (except pre-ROSAT Goten and Trunks).

Cell Games Piccolo being at least as strong as Super Vegeta.

Yakon is about 3rd form Freeza or Freeza True form holding back

Gohan said he was stronger than base Goku in the Buu Saga, though.

Kibito is Goku KKx2 Ginyu Arc(180,000)

So no Daiz here?

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan said he was stronger than base Goku in the Buu Saga, though.

I said True form holding back. That can range from initial True Form to 90%.

So no Daiz here?

Don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu is the way I roll haha. THough I think I should make him stronger to around Second form Freeza or so. Don't see him to be all that to be honest.

[PerfectFreeza]

Kibito being slightly stronger than 50% Freeza.

Tullece(Pre-Fruits) being on par with M4 Piccolo(Weights off).

Hatchiyack being equal with CG FPSSJ Goku, Giant Hatchiyack equaling Buu saga FPSSJ Goku, Super Hatchiyack being equal to FP Perfect Cell.

Base Bojack rivaling Paikuhan(Weights off) and rivaling FP PC at his buff form.

Janenba rivaling Pure Evil Boo, at full power, the roles swap.

Base Gotenks(Pre) equaling Post-1st Rosat SSJG2 Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

Kaioshin being about as strong as Imperfect Cell.
Yakon is just above Third form Freeza.
Pui Pui probably something like Cui's level.
Kibitoshin around SSJ Gohan.
South Kaioshin is SSJ3 Goku in ki based attacks only, physical strength he is probably around SSJ2 Gohan.
SSJ2 Gogeta being on par with Gotenks or Evil Boo, because Goku and Vegeta are probably around double their sons base battle powers by this point.
SSJ3 Gogeta being on par with Bootenks.

Assuming the fusion modifiers cancel each other out. And by that I mean that any increase would be the same for both fusions so there is no point in taking that into account:

Goten: 3
Trunks: 3
Vegeta: 6
Goku: 6

Gotenks: 3+3 = 6
SSJ3 Gotenks: 6*400 = 2,400
Evil Boo: 2,400 (Or around that.)
Bootenks: 4,800

Gogeta: 6+6 = 12
SSJ2 Gogeta: 12*200 = 2,400
SSJ3 Gogeta: 12*400= 4,800

Kibito is Goku KKx2 Ginyu Arc(180,000)

Really? I would say Kibito is a lot stronger than that. Every Base Saiyan should be more than Post-Zenkai Goku (Freeza Arc) for a good while. Gohan said he'd struggle unless he went SSJ so I would not say he is that weak. >.<

[Son Edo]

Kibito is underrated, I agree.

[TheGmGoken]

Kibito is Goku KKx2 Ginyu Arc(180,000)

Really? I would say Kibito is a lot stronger than that. Every Base Saiyan should be more than Post-Zenkai Goku (Freeza Arc) for a good while. Gohan said he'd struggle unless he went SSJ so I would not say he is that weak. >.<

Don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu is the way I roll haha. THough I think I should make him stronger to around Second form Freeza or so. Don't see him to be all that to be honest.

[Hitiro]

Don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu is the way I roll haha. THough I think I should make him stronger to around Second form Freeza or so. Don't see him to be all that to be honest.

I understand what you mean, but still. Base Gohan isn't all that either. In fact, none of the base Saiyan's are all that without the SSJ transformations. And in the manga Gohan specifically says he'd have trouble dealing with Kibito at the tournament without going SSJ.

[TheGmGoken]

Don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu is the way I roll haha. THough I think I should make him stronger to around Second form Freeza or so. Don't see him to be all that to be honest.

I understand what you mean, but still. Base Gohan isn't all that either. In fact, none of the base Saiyan's are all that without the SSJ transformations. And in the manga Gohan specifically says he'd have trouble dealing with Kibito at the tournament without going SSJ.

Base Gohan isn't all that strong as you said. Would't that mean he would have trouble? Him going SSJ was to prevent that. So I don't understand your confusion. If base Gohan is nothing special how would Kibito be too weak with my power statement

[Hitiro]

Base Gohan isn't all that strong as you said. Would't that mean he would have trouble? Him going SSJ was to prevent that. So I don't understand your confusion. If base Gohan is nothing special how would Kibito be too weak with my power statement

Base Gohan isn't strong, yes. But he isn't leaps and bounds behind Goku and Vegeta in my personal opinion. I would say Goku and Vegeta are roughly 2 times stronger than Gohan in my opinion. But that is besides the point. You said Kibito was as strong as Goku, Ginyu Arc with Kaioken x2 which is 180,000. Can you explain to me how Gohan would have trouble with someone of that level? I can't see Gohan going from well over Goku's Freeza Arc power level of 3 million to being much weaker than that.

[TheGmGoken]

But that is besides the point. You said Kibito was as strong as Goku, Ginyu Arc with Kaioken x2 which is 180,000. Can you explain to me how Gohan would have trouble with someone of that level?

Not to sound rude but did you not read my post? I corrected myself. You even quoted me.

Don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu is the way I roll haha. THough I think I should make him stronger to around Second form Freeza or so. Don't see him to be all that to be honest.

I understand what you mean, but still. Base Gohan isn't all that either. In fact, none of the base Saiyan's are all that without the SSJ transformations. And in the manga Gohan specifically says he'd have trouble dealing with Kibito at the tournament without going SSJ.

Read the bold lines. I made him around second form Freeza which is over a million. Around his form means 1 Mill - 2 mill. Which is about 2x weaker than Goku and Vegeta's base.

[Hitiro]

Read the bold lines. I made him around second form Freeza which is over a million. Around his form means 1 Mill - 2 mill. Which is about 2x weaker than Goku and Vegeta's base.

Sorry, I'm a bit groggy today. Sleep has been weird for me lately.. But now that you say it like that I also don't agree with that statement. Goku and Vegeta are not 3 million anymore. They have vastly increased by couple more million since that time frame. I would never say Goku or Vegeta got past 50% of Freeza's final form but I feel in base they are on their way to that amount. I think something like 15 to 20 million for both Gohan and Kibito is a fair estimate? With Goku and Vegeta at around 30 to 40 million.

[RandomGuy96]

That still seems awfully low. The lowest I'd ever put base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga is 50% Freeza.

[Hitiro]

That still seems awfully low. The lowest I'd ever put base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga is 50% Freeza.

Really? I put them below 50% Freeza because if Goku was above that then the collective Genki from Earth, Namek and Otherworld would never be enough to take to Pure Boo. Assuming there is no amplification of energy from the Genki received then the Genki Dama would be at something like 30 to 40 billion. At 50% Freeza's battle power Goku would be at 24 billion. If the Genki Dama could defeat Pure Boo with that low of an amount of battle power then Goku's Kamehameha which from the Saiyan Arc was just over a 2x amplification of his battle power should have been enough to finish Pure Boo. He would have never needed to use the Genki Dama. If Goku is at 30 to 40 million then at SSJ3 he'd be at 12 to 16 billion. A good gap for the Genki Dama to fully finish the job when it lands.

[RandomGuy96]

He tried to use the Kamehameha and he reverted to base. He still said it would be enough to completely wipe out Buu had he been able to launch it. Plus, if Buu is like 25 billion, the Genki Dama is still MORE than strong enough at 40 billion. Buu would've pushed it away without Goku's last contribution anyway, so that's something to consider.

But I seriously think that you are overthinking that scene. The Genki Dama doesn't appear to just add parts of battle power or anything similar. Evidence of this:

-Gohan's ki not being enough alone, even though he's several times stronger than Pure Buu.
-Goten and Trunks not fusing into Gotenks and rendering the Earthlings irrelevant