How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?

[TheGmGoken]

I disagree. I find it hard to believe that Vegeta wouldn't think that someone twice as strong as Goku couldn't one-shot him.

With punches and with Goku's never give up attitude.Remember Goku vs Freeza. Freeza was 60 million and Goku was 3 million. That's well over 2x.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think someone can accomplish a two blow knock out with roughly a 2 times difference in general soooooooooooo yeah. We also have to remember this movie originally planned on Gohan being a SSJ only, not Ultimate. I take that scene with a grain of salt because of this. Plus, Kaio has scene what Gohan can do, and he's still pretty adamant about Vegeta, and everyone, not messing with Beers.

[Kaboom]

That's the sort of too-analytical-for-one's-own-good approach I've managed to avoid, I think.

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Toriyama, via Vegeta.

With a roughly 2x power gap, is Goku just about guaranteed to lose to Gotenks or Gohan in a one-on-one fight? Yeah, pretty much. Is there any way to accurately predict how long he'd last or how much of a fight he could put up? Not at all.

[RandomGuy96]

That's the sort of much-too-analytic approach I've managed to avoid, I think.

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Toriyama, via Vegeta.

Is Goku pretty much guaranteed to lose to Gotenks or Gohan in a one-on-one fight? Yeah, pretty much. Is there any way to accurately predict how long he'd last or how much of a fight he could put up? Not at all.

Yet Vegeta could apparently predict that they couldn't two-shot him...?

Also, Vegeta still seems to measure things by battle power numbers even after every scouter is destroyed... somehow...

I think someone can accomplish a two blow knock out with roughly a 2 times difference in general soooooooooooo yeah. We also have to remember this movie originally planned on Gohan being a SSJ only, not Ultimate. I take that scene with a grain of salt because of this. Plus, Kaio has scene what Gohan can do, and he's still pretty adamant about Vegeta, and everyone, not messing with Beers.

If you assume Gohan was a SS2, everything makes far more sense, like even SS Gotenks being implied to be stronger than him. That was how it was written anyway; the Ultimate thing was a last minute art change that was poorly done in some places.

[TheGmGoken]

We also have to remember this movie originally planned on Gohan being a SSJ only, not Ultimate.

When was that stated. I remember something like GOhan was SSJ for promotional reasons only.

Yet Vegeta could apparently predict that they couldn't two-shot him...?

They can't be reduced into numbers. I mean saiyans can take a beating.

[Kaboom]

I'm just saying it's probably not something you should be too strict about.

All we're intended to get out of the line is "holy crap, someone can take down Super Saiyan 3 Goku in a mere two blows! He's stronger than everyone!" Anything beyond that regarding fussing around with specific power gaps is all fan-concocted tomfoolery.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm just saying it's probably not something you should be too strict about.

All we're intended to get out of the line is "holy crap, someone can take down Super Saiyan 3 Goku in a mere two blows! He's stronger than everyone!" Anything beyond that regarding fussing around with specific power gaps is all fan-concocted tomfoolery.

Okay: Vegeta can apparently accurately predict that no one can two shot Goku. But at the same time, he can't accurately predict that Gohan can't two shot Goku, because he doesn't know how many blows it'll take.

And that line doesn't mean much if Gohan and Gotenks can already dispatch him in two blows, which they should be able to going by previous events.

[PerfectFreeza]

I'd say 6x stronger, mainly thanks to the huge official SSJ3 multiplier for Gotenks.

[ZombieVito]

Lets see:

Gohan
~ Ultimate: 10,000,000,000,000

Goku
~ Base: 112,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan: 5,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2: 28,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3: 140,000,000,000

Almost 72 times. Uh, I thought the gap was going to be a lot bigger haha.

[Hitiro]

Me personally I would say it was something like this.

SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT): 3/4 SSJ3 Goku (I subsrcribe to this because Goku wasn't going all out in the fight and I 3x SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is plenty to take on Fat Boo. Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, he didn't specify whether Gotenks would be stronger than what he was currently fighting at.)
SSJ Gotenks(Post-RoSaT): 2x SSJ3 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8x SSJ3 Goku
Gohan(R. Kaioshin Power-up): 10x+ SSJ3 Goku

^ I think that's a fair assessment in my own personal view.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

I have Gohan about 15-20 x above SSJ3 Goku.

[Kakashi]

FLAME BAIT ALERT!

Simple answer is he's not, and even if by some strange twisted logic that I don't personally subscribe too, it can't be much.

Gohan AND Gotenks were both suggested as helping Goku fight Pure Buu, meaning Kaboom's theory just couldn't hold true.
We have the Daizenshuu's statement saying that Gotenks Leveled up so much his strength surpassed Vegeta AFTER training.
We know that in the history of DBZ, no Sayjin has ever matched his SSJ power in base form, much less after 2 weeks of training.
We know that Gohan isn't THAT much stronger than Gotenks, Trunks begrudgingly admits it.
We know that Goku by the end of Z is looking for a worthy opponent - implying that no one is on Goku's level. I mean, he waited 10 years!
Of course, we know Goku says that him and Vegeta would be killed by Evil Buu ----BUT Goku was confident that he could at least manage something, even as a SSJ2 with Vegeta's help.
We know that KidBuu is stronger than FatBuu. We know that "Buff Buu" is stronger than Evil Buu. The Manga and Anime make no mention that KidBuu's power dropped, and Kaishinn wasn't somehow relieved that a supposedly weaker Buu showed up.
Fusion was suggested to beat Kidbuu

I think that covers it.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=23381

Stop it

[Darkprince410]

FLAME BAIT ALERT!

Simple answer is he's not, and even if by some strange twisted logic that I don't personally subscribe too, it can't be much.

Gohan AND Gotenks were both suggested as helping Goku fight Pure Buu, meaning Kaboom's theory just couldn't hold true.
We have the Daizenshuu's statement saying that Gotenks Leveled up so much his strength surpassed Vegeta AFTER training.
We know that in the history of DBZ, no Sayjin has ever matched his SSJ power in base form, much less after 2 weeks of training.
We know that Gohan isn't THAT much stronger than Gotenks, Trunks begrudgingly admits it.
We know that Goku by the end of Z is looking for a worthy opponent - implying that no one is on Goku's level. I mean, he waited 10 years!
Of course, we know Goku says that him and Vegeta would be killed by Evil Buu ----BUT Goku was confident that he could at least manage something, even as a SSJ2 with Vegeta's help.
We know that KidBuu is stronger than FatBuu. We know that "Buff Buu" is stronger than Evil Buu. The Manga and Anime make no mention that KidBuu's power dropped, and Kaishinn wasn't somehow relieved that a supposedly weaker Buu showed up.
Fusion was suggested to beat Kidbuu

I think that covers it.

1) Simply insurance. They've missed many chances in the past to destroy Buu even when they've had the strength and tactical advantage, so just bringing all the big guns at once to destroy him is certainly a good plan.

2) You're making an assumption of the Daizenshuu entry to fit your beliefs, when it's been shown by many others on here that the entry can be open to interpretation. An interpretation just as feasible (and actually supported by the image that is shown in the Daizenshuu) is that Gotenks' base form, following Goten and Trunks' training, is now stronger than Vegeta's Ssj2 form. Given that the boys are by themselves not far behind their parents in terms of power (as established by the Daizenshuu stating that Goten was every bit as powerful as Gohan was) before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, a fusion between them using simple addition would almost certainly put them above their fathers at the same level.

3) You're just assuming that because we have no idea what the formula of the fusion dance is. Besides, by that reasoning, you're saying that Vegetto in his base form shouldn't be higher than Goku's Ssj form.

4) Just a few seconds beforehand Trunks was saying that Gohan wasn't even as strong as Gotenks. Remember, Trunks' entire motives have been to look cool during fights, so he's going to certainly try to boast about Gotenks' strength whenever he possibly could. Him begrudgingly admitting Gohan was "a little" stronger was him trying to still save face after Goten corrects him. What we see from Gohan and Buu's fight definitively shows though that Gohan was significantly stronger than Buu, who was basically dead even with Gotenks.

5) Gohan has turned to a scholarly way of life and the boys have no interest in fighting anymore. Why would he look to them for a good fight when their hearts aren't in it anymore? Besides, maybe he doesn't see them worth fighting because he knows he wouldn't stand a chance against them? He's looking for a good fight, not a massacre, so why would he want to fight them when he's so severely outclassed?

6) Goku never once said that he was confident they would be able to manage something when he and Vegeta were alone. The only thing he said was that Buu's ki had dropped considerably, but he still saw himself and Vegeta as being too weak to be able to fight him. It's clear from the bravado he exhibited when he challenged Evil Buu that he was attempting to bluff his way out and likewise didn't know that his ki had been reduced as a result of the change in size.

It was actually Pure Buu (Kid Buu) that he said that he felt they were able to manage something on.

7) Except that there was a very clear indication of it, which you're ignoring because you don't believe the validity of Goku's statement. Goku clearly points out that he and Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance if they left Buu's body, not knowing that his strength was reduced as a result of their size (as a result, he's basing it on the strength he would have outside). Then, after escaping and watching Evil Buu revert to Kaioushin Buu, his strength is established as increasing. Then, right after he reverts back to Pure Buu, Goku says that they'll now be able to manage something. So we have Evil Buu being too strong for them, Kaioushin Buu being even stronger than Evil Buu, and then Pure Buu being something they felt they could handle. That's as clear an indicator of a huge drop in power as one would need.

Kaioushin's entire fear of Pure Buu stems from his pure evil nature, unable to be controlled or suppressed. He never once says that he fears Pure Buu for his power, and instead makes many statements about his pure evil and uncontrollable behavior.

8 ) Fusion was suggested multiple times to defeat Evil Buu. Goku established that if they had the Potaras, they would have been able to defeat Evil Buu once they left his body (further indicating that he was too strong for them individually), then later suggested they use the Fusion Dance, and then again, right as they're confronting Evil Buu within his body, Goku, in an exasperated state, berates Vegeta for destroying the Potaras again. In turn, Goku's one statement about the Potaras for Pure Buu was that it'd just make the fight a breeze, and not that it was their only course of action available to them.

I'd also like to point out that the Battle of the Gods official bios establishes Gohan as being stronger than any pure-blooded Saiya-jin (fusions excluded), which is an official source outright saying that Gohan is stronger than his father.

To remain on topic though, I feel that Gohan could be in the ballpark of maybe 150-175x as strong as Ssj3 Goku if you go by how I interpret the Daizenshuu entry. With base Gotenks being stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, that would put Ssj3 Gotenks at over 400x Ssj2 Vegeta's strength (which in turn works out to be somewhere above 100x Ssj3 Goku's strength). If you assume simple addition of battle powers and that Ssj3 Gotenks and Evil Buu were equal or near equal in strength, that would put Gotenks Buu as 200x Ssj3 Goku's strength. Since Gohan was stronger than Evil Buu but weaker than Gotenks Buu, that would put him in between 100-200x Goku's strength.

[Kaboom]

Stop it

Don't add fuel to the fire, please.

[Axiom]

Stop it

Don't add fuel to the fire, please.

You should make me a moderator - that dude would have banned from the first day he posted. Maybe a 3 week vacation would be ideal for him trolling threads?

[VegettoEX]

You should make me a moderator - that dude would have banned from the first day he posted. Maybe a 3 week vacation would be ideal for him trolling threads?

This adds nothing to the discussion.

Carry on, please.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm starting to go by a mix of Kaboom and Random's theories, if I've been reading them right. Having Base Gotenks really high, but giving him smaller multipliers, so in the end, he's around 3-4 times stronger than Goku, with Gohan somewhat stronger than that. That fits in pretty well with my Buu theories as well.

[Axiom]

FLAME BAIT ALERT!

Simple answer is he's not, and even if by some strange twisted logic that I don't personally subscribe too, it can't be much.

Gohan AND Gotenks were both suggested as helping Goku fight Pure Buu, meaning Kaboom's theory just couldn't hold true.
We have the Daizenshuu's statement saying that Gotenks Leveled up so much his strength surpassed Vegeta AFTER training.
We know that in the history of DBZ, no Sayjin has ever matched his SSJ power in base form, much less after 2 weeks of training.
We know that Gohan isn't THAT much stronger than Gotenks, Trunks begrudgingly admits it.
We know that Goku by the end of Z is looking for a worthy opponent - implying that no one is on Goku's level. I mean, he waited 10 years!
Of course, we know Goku says that him and Vegeta would be killed by Evil Buu ----BUT Goku was confident that he could at least manage something, even as a SSJ2 with Vegeta's help.
We know that KidBuu is stronger than FatBuu. We know that "Buff Buu" is stronger than Evil Buu. The Manga and Anime make no mention that KidBuu's power dropped, and Kaishinn wasn't somehow relieved that a supposedly weaker Buu showed up.
Fusion was suggested to beat Kidbuu

I think that covers it.

1) Simply insurance. They've missed many chances in the past to destroy Buu even when they've had the strength and tactical advantage, so just bringing all the big guns at once to destroy him is certainly a good plan.

2) You're making an assumption of the Daizenshuu entry to fit your beliefs, when it's been shown by many others on here that the entry can be open to interpretation. An interpretation just as feasible (and actually supported by the image that is shown in the Daizenshuu) is that Gotenks' base form, following Goten and Trunks' training, is now stronger than Vegeta's Ssj2 form. Given that the boys are by themselves not far behind their parents in terms of power (as established by the Daizenshuu stating that Goten was every bit as powerful as Gohan was) before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, a fusion between them using simple addition would almost certainly put them above their fathers at the same level.

3) You're just assuming that because we have no idea what the formula of the fusion dance is. Besides, by that reasoning, you're saying that Vegetto in his base form shouldn't be higher than Goku's Ssj form.

4) Just a few seconds beforehand Trunks was saying that Gohan wasn't even as strong as Gotenks. Remember, Trunks' entire motives have been to look cool during fights, so he's going to certainly try to boast about Gotenks' strength whenever he possibly could. Him begrudgingly admitting Gohan was "a little" stronger was him trying to still save face after Goten corrects him. What we see from Gohan and Buu's fight definitively shows though that Gohan was significantly stronger than Buu, who was basically dead even with Gotenks.

5) Gohan has turned to a scholarly way of life and the boys have no interest in fighting anymore. Why would he look to them for a good fight when their hearts aren't in it anymore? Besides, maybe he doesn't see them worth fighting because he knows he wouldn't stand a chance against them? He's looking for a good fight, not a massacre, so why would he want to fight them when he's so severely outclassed?

6) Goku never once said that he was confident they would be able to manage something when he and Vegeta were alone. The only thing he said was that Buu's ki had dropped considerably, but he still saw himself and Vegeta as being too weak to be able to fight him. It's clear from the bravado he exhibited when he challenged Evil Buu that he was attempting to bluff his way out and likewise didn't know that his ki had been reduced as a result of the change in size.

It was actually Pure Buu (Kid Buu) that he said that he felt they were able to manage something on.

7) Except that there was a very clear indication of it, which you're ignoring because you don't believe the validity of Goku's statement. Goku clearly points out that he and Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance if they left Buu's body, not knowing that his strength was reduced as a result of their size (as a result, he's basing it on the strength he would have outside). Then, after escaping and watching Evil Buu revert to Kaioushin Buu, his strength is established as increasing. Then, right after he reverts back to Pure Buu, Goku says that they'll now be able to manage something. So we have Evil Buu being too strong for them, Kaioushin Buu being even stronger than Evil Buu, and then Pure Buu being something they felt they could handle. That's as clear an indicator of a huge drop in power as one would need.

Kaioushin's entire fear of Pure Buu stems from his pure evil nature, unable to be controlled or suppressed. He never once says that he fears Pure Buu for his power, and instead makes many statements about his pure evil and uncontrollable behavior.

8 ) Fusion was suggested multiple times to defeat Evil Buu. Goku established that if they had the Potaras, they would have been able to defeat Evil Buu once they left his body (further indicating that he was too strong for them individually), then later suggested they use the Fusion Dance, and then again, right as they're confronting Evil Buu within his body, Goku, in an exasperated state, berates Vegeta for destroying the Potaras again. In turn, Goku's one statement about the Potaras for Pure Buu was that it'd just make the fight a breeze, and not that it was their only course of action available to them.

I'd also like to point out that the Battle of the Gods official bios establishes Gohan as being stronger than any pure-blooded Saiya-jin (fusions excluded), which is an official source outright saying that Gohan is stronger than his father.

To remain on topic though, I feel that Gohan could be in the ballpark of maybe 150-175x as strong as Ssj3 Goku if you go by how I interpret the Daizenshuu entry. With base Gotenks being stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, that would put Ssj3 Gotenks at over 400x Ssj2 Vegeta's strength (which in turn works out to be somewhere above 100x Ssj3 Goku's strength). If you assume simple addition of battle powers and that Ssj3 Gotenks and Evil Buu were equal or near equal in strength, that would put Gotenks Buu as 200x Ssj3 Goku's strength. Since Gohan was stronger than Evil Buu but weaker than Gotenks Buu, that would put him in between 100-200x Goku's strength.

Against my better judgement, I'll bite.
1. Stupid. I'm not saying you are, but Gotenks has a strict X minute time limit in SSJ3, while Gohan has no such restriction. If anything, bringing both would be a libilty on having Buu absorb someone and power up again. Besides, if Gohan was 10-1000times stronger ( this is Captian Ginyu to Frieza levels we are talking about here, laughable in my opinon, but whatever) This should be nothing but Cannon fodder for Gohan. That wasn't implied at all. The difference between being twice as strong as someone would be Goku vs Raditz. Nothing of the sort is implied.

2. I'm not making ANY assumptions. It says what it says. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta (Goku is not mentioned) and Leveled up to become stronger AFTER traning. Unless you think they more than doubled their strength in 14 days, they aren't going to be that much stronger, much less SSJ3 Goku level. But this isn't about Gotenks, it's about How awesome Goku is, and how Gohan probably isn't stonger (if only by a little)

3. You're logic is lacking in...well, logic. No matter what the multiplier is, we've never seen a character DOUBLE his strength in 2 weeks, much less a 50X increase that I've seen some people claim. I don't care what the Daizen says about Gohan compared to Goten - that has nothing to do with Gotenks, Goku or Ultimate Gohan. We do know that Goten is absolutely weaker than Goku, even as an SSJ.

4. Obviously Trunks is an idiot, who believed he could take Buu in base. (but actually knew he'd need SSJ3, as him and Goten already agreed they wanted to make the fight more dramatic) but we have nothing to deny the claim that Gohan is only a 'little" stronger than Gotenks.

5. Yeah, whatever. Or it could be that Gohan is no longer a challenge for Goku. But make up whatever story helps you sleep at night.

6. Don't make me post the scans again. I don't know how someone who is so wrong, so frequently will just post up shit to argue. It's hilarious to be quite honest. Goku doesn't think he can beat Buu in his present state, which we are lead to believe is due to size. Say whatever you want, Goku looked pretty confident that he could at least blow a hole in buu and escape, to which Buu reminded them that they are too small to be effective.

7. There is no indicator because nothing is stated - ever, by anyone. At all. Not in any media. Period. You are wrong. And Goku didn't state ANYTHING about managing something, that comment was Vegeta who made fun of his size, while gloating that they would be able to handle it. The Kai's immediately recommended fusion to fight him, as they did with Gotenks/Gohan Buu.

AT a 150X gap, again, that's like Kirilln vs 3rd form Frieza, effectively making the main character of the show usless foder. I don't think any sane realistic person would believe that.

[Axiom]

You should make me a moderator - that dude would have banned from the first day he posted. Maybe a 3 week vacation would be ideal for him trolling threads?

This adds nothing to the discussion.

Carry on, please.

Maybe not, but Kaboom warned people just a page before for similar behavior. It it were me - ban without warning. Like you said, be awesome or Be gone. I don't think he's being awesome, do you?

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

If I fuse manga statements of Gotenks strength and Super Saiyan Multipliers together it would result be like this (see below).

Super Saiyan Gotenks [50x] - No Match For Evil Boo
Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks (Hypo) [100x] - Equal To Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks [400x] - Equal To Evil Boo

Chou/Ultimate Gohan would be around 500x-600x. Who kicked Evil Boo around

==4x Difference==
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

==1.5x Difference==
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Chou/Ultimate Gohan

==6x Difference==
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Chou/Ultimate Gohan

==4x Difference==
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Evil Boo