How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?

[Linkthoy]

3. You're logic is lacking in...well, logic. No matter what the multiplier is, we've never seen a character DOUBLE his strength in 2 weeks, much less a 50X increase that I've seen some people claim. I don't care what the Daizen says about Gohan compared to Goten - that has nothing to do with Gotenks, Goku or Ultimate Gohan. We do know that Goten is absolutely weaker than Goku, even as an SSJ.

As much as I don't want to get involved, I have to point out the statement I underlined isn't very accurate. Using the main character himself, Goku went from somewhere over 8,000 to 90,000 (minus the Kaio-ken) in his six day journey to Namek. That's almost a 11x's increase in 6 days.

[VegettoEX]

If you go by the Daizenshuu 7 battle powers, Goku went from 180 at the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budōkai to 260 in the battle against Piccolo-Daimao, which is after his visit to Karin and the Super God Water.

That's not quite double the power increase, but it was also only a mere two days later.

[Hitiro]

I'm not making ANY assumptions. It says what it says. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta (Goku is not mentioned) and Leveled up to become stronger AFTER traning. Unless you think they more than doubled their strength in 14 days, they aren't going to be that much stronger, much less SSJ3 Goku level. But this isn't about Gotenks, it's about How awesome Goku is, and how Gohan probably isn't stonger (if only by a little)

So hold on... What you are saying in this is this:

Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) < Vegeta

Gotenks(Post-RoSaT) > Vegeta

Hmm... Okay..

If that is so, then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Why?

Gotenks > Vegeta = Goku

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”

[Axiom]

Ssj3 gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, anot Goku.And good point Vegetto, but the God water itself could be the cause, as could Goku's Zenki from fighting Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

Ssj3 gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, anot Goku.And good point Vegetto, but the God water itself could be the cause, as could Goku's Zenki from fighting Vegeta.

So you are going to make assumptions now? It never states forms in the guidebook. All it says is Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in strength. If you honestly think that Gotenks didn't surpass SSJ2 Vegeta until he went SSJ3 then why would Piccolo even consider sending SSJ Gotenks to fight Fat Boo? Can you please explain the logic behind that?

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

^ Here Piccolo adamantly says Gotenks wouldn't be able to win against Fat Boo.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

^ Here Piccolo admits SSJ Gotenks is really strong, but he wants to know how fast he is to get the job done in the 30 mins of fusion time. Why would Piccolo send SSJ Gotenks if he isn't at least close to SSJ2 Vegeta? That is pretty absurd.

[Axiom]

Ssj3 gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, anot Goku.And good point Vegetto, but the God water itself could be the cause, as could Goku's Zenki from fighting Vegeta.

So you are going to make assumptions now? It never states forms in the guidebook. All it says is Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in strength. If you honestly think that Gotenks didn't surpass SSJ2 Vegeta until he went SSJ3 then why would Piccolo even consider sending SSJ Gotenks to fight Fat Boo? Can you please explain the logic behind that?

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

^ Here Piccolo adamantly says Gotenks wouldn't be able to win against Fat Boo.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

^ Here Piccolo admits Gotenks is really strong, but he wants to know how fast he is to get the job done in the 30 mins of fusion time. Why would Piccolo send Gotenks if he isn't at least close to SSJ2 Vegeta? That is pretty absurd.

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

Goku said that he doesn't know if he could beat Fat Boo as a SSJ3. Piccolo also knows that Fat Boo's power is a lie. So just because SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 tier doesn't mean it would be a clear and concise victory. There is no telling how strong Fat Boo could become if he got angry enough. And also Fat Boo is kind of immortal so taking him down in 1 shot is pretty difficult to do. You saw yourself that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was basically a 1 shot attack on Evil Boo. Yet it didn't finish him. Piccolo knows Fat Boo is very durable, he witnessed Fat Boo come back from literally nothing when Vegeta blew himself up. There are many uncertainties Piccolo would have to consider when sending SSJ Gotenks into battle, just because he has the power doesn't mean he has the speed to execute a finishing blow.

[SaiyanZ]

I have Gohan as probably around 8-10x stronger when Goku is using the form alive or in the mortal realm. Personally, I think Goku is somewhat comparable if he were SSJ3 when either dead or in the after life.

[RandomGuy96]

Being in the Otherworld doesn't automatically make him 10 times stronger.

[SaiyanZ]

I think it does. SSJ3 is just that draining to me lol.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you go by the Daizenshuu 7 battle powers, Goku went from 180 at the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budōkai to 260 in the battle against Piccolo-Daimao, which is after his visit to Karin and the Super God Water.

That's not quite double the power increase, but it was also only a mere two days later.

Well, that increase was because he was beaten to death by Tenshinhan, Tambourine, and Piccolo Daimao, and mostly because he drank the Super God Water.

I think that you are confusing this with Goku going to Karin for the first time during the Taopaipai incident, when he trained under Karin for 3 days and got a massive increase.

we have no idea what the formula of the fusion dance is.

Actually, the guides tell us that Fusion makes the pair dozens of times stronger.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Axiom, that's enough. I'd rather this thread not be riddled with arguments. If you wanna argue with someone, take it to a PM. That goes for everyone else too please. I started this thread to get theories not arguments that may lead to a closing of this thread.

[VegettoEX]

Axiom, that's enough. I'd rather this thread not be riddled with arguments. If you wanna argue with someone, take it to a PM. That goes for everyone else too please. I started this thread to get theories not arguments that may lead to a closing of this thread.

There is no need to backseat moderate after two moderators have already jumped in and steered the conversation back on-course.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Axiom, that's enough. I'd rather this thread not be riddled with arguments. If you wanna argue with someone, take it to a PM. That goes for everyone else too please. I started this thread to get theories not arguments that may lead to a closing of this thread.

There is no need to backseat moderate after two moderators have already jumped in and steered the conversation back on-course.

I'm sure he's not done. I gave the PM option where as no one else did.

[VegettoEX]

I don't think you understand: please stop. It's already done. You don't need to give people options when it's clear what their options are. You don't need to commentate on the posting style of others (you can report posts if you feel they break the forum rules, which is private and does not disrupt the flow of conversation), and you don't need to moderate when moderators are already moderating.

Please keep all further posts on topic at hand. Thank you!

[TheMightyOzaru]

Very well good sir .

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Since the manga and official guides and such are so wishy-washy and conflicted on the topic and can be interpreted multiple ways, I settle for a compromise. I consider Gotenk and Gohan to average between 2-3x stronger than Goku overall. That's significantly stronger, enough that he can't fight the same forms of Boo that they can, but he isn't so far behind that he couldn't catch up to them after a few years.

This outlook is admittedly a bit weaselly in some small areas (though I challenge you to find one that isn't), but doesn't strictly contradict anything and helps some of the movies and other post-Z material mesh with the series a little bit.


(P.S. - In a moderator capacity, I will be watching this thread like a hawk watches a crippled chipmunk.)

How can Goku surpass SSJ Gotenks, SSJ2 Gotenks (he skipped this and went beyond), SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan in such a short few years of time? Doesn't that seem insaiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Do the official saiyans multipliers work in the same way in the fusions as normal forms (ss1-ss2-ss3)?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Because Gotenks SS3 being eight stronger than Goku SS3 is quite exaggerated!