How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

Do the official saiyans multipliers work in the same way in the fusions as normal forms (ss1-ss2-ss3)?

Based on Gotenks apparently skipping SS2, and SS Gotenks damaging Super Buu with physical attacks, no, I don't think so. For fusions, more dormant power may be on the surface, resulting in smaller transformation boosts.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

Toriyama, the same guy who thought SSJ3 Goku was SSJ2 Goku, lol.

[TheGmGoken]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

Toriyama, the same guy who thought SSJ3 Goku was SSJ2 Goku, lol.

Ugh. How I hate comments like these now. He wrote the story 20 years ago. Do you expect him to know EVERYTHING. Notice in the interviews he said he RE-READ the manga. That alone should tell you that he knows what he's talking about. If age is catching up with Goku then so be it.

[Axiom]

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

Goku said that he doesn't know if he could beat Fat Boo as a SSJ3. Piccolo also knows that Fat Boo's power is a lie. So just because SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 tier doesn't mean it would be a clear and concise victory. There is no telling how strong Fat Boo could become if he got angry enough. And also Fat Boo is kind of immortal so taking him down in 1 shot is pretty difficult to do. You saw yourself that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was basically a 1 shot attack on Evil Boo. Yet it didn't finish him. Piccolo knows Fat Boo is very durable, he witnessed Fat Boo come back from literally nothing when Vegeta blew himself up. There are many uncertainties Piccolo would have to consider when sending SSJ Gotenks into battle, just because he has the power doesn't mean he has the speed to execute a finishing blow.

It doesn't matter what we think or feel or say - we KNOW (because it's been stated) that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after his training and he leveled up. Moving on from there, Gotenks didn't sense Buu's power increase, but believed that his SSJ3 was powerful enough to actually beat him. He even tells Goten that they will start off in base and finish him in SSJ3. From those two points, we KNOW he wasn't powerful enough orginally. Considering Goku was confident that he could beat the FatBuu (as was Gotenks) I'd put them all (Goku, Gohan and Gotenks in that order) around the same realm of power - especially considering Vegeta's comments on Goku's SSJ3 power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do the official saiyans multipliers work in the same way in the fusions as normal forms (ss1-ss2-ss3)?

Yes.

Because Gotenks SS3 being eight stronger than Goku SS3 is quite exaggerated!

What's the problem? Gotenks is a result from Fusion.

[Axiom]

Do the official saiyans multipliers work in the same way in the fusions as normal forms (ss1-ss2-ss3)?

Yes.

Because Gotenks SS3 being eight stronger than Goku SS3 is quite exaggerated!

What's the problem? Gotenks is a result from Fusion.

The problem is that Goku would be as relevent as Piccolo/Krillin in DBZ. I don't think that was the intention.

[PerfectFreeza]

Vegeta and the others, not just Vegeta.The others could include SSJ3 Goku.

[Axiom]

Vegeta and the others, not just Vegeta.The others could include SSJ3 Goku.

Not really - does that mean it can include Gohan too?
Goku is not equal to Vegeta, everyone knows that, they specifically mentioned Vegeta and not Goku for that reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The problem is that Goku would be as relevent as Piccolo/Krillin in DBZ. I don't think that was the intention.

But it was. Originally, Toriyama planned to have Gohan as the main protagonist (with Goten & Trunks/Gotenks on his side), with Goku most likely remaining dead. However, he decided that Gohan wasn't very fitting in the role, so he took Gohan & Gotenks out of the way, brought Goku back to life, and used Vegetto as a plot device to bring Boo at Goku's level.

Goku is not equal to Vegeta, everyone knows that

They are equals in base/SS/SS2 after Vegeta got the power-up from Babidi.

[Stark the lone wolf]

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

Goku said that he doesn't know if he could beat Fat Boo as a SSJ3. Piccolo also knows that Fat Boo's power is a lie. So just because SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 tier doesn't mean it would be a clear and concise victory. There is no telling how strong Fat Boo could become if he got angry enough. And also Fat Boo is kind of immortal so taking him down in 1 shot is pretty difficult to do. You saw yourself that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was basically a 1 shot attack on Evil Boo. Yet it didn't finish him. Piccolo knows Fat Boo is very durable, he witnessed Fat Boo come back from literally nothing when Vegeta blew himself up. There are many uncertainties Piccolo would have to consider when sending SSJ Gotenks into battle, just because he has the power doesn't mean he has the speed to execute a finishing blow.

It doesn't matter what we think or feel or say - we KNOW (because it's been stated) that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after his training and he leveled up. Moving on from there, Gotenks didn't sense Buu's power increase, but believed that his SSJ3 was powerful enough to actually beat him. He even tells Goten that they will start off in base and finish him in SSJ3. From those two points, we KNOW he wasn't powerful enough orginally. Considering Goku was confident that he could beat the FatBuu (as was Gotenks) I'd put them all (Goku, Gohan and Gotenks in that order) around the same realm of power - especially considering Vegeta's comments on Goku's SSJ3 power.

He was already stronger than him, base gotenks pre rosat was able to survive a fight against fat buu while the likes of dabura weren't able to do it, actually trunks told goten they would only need base to fight super buu which means they were already stronger, gotenks was even felt from the supreme kai where only ssj3 tiers could be felt, when gotenks appeared Piccolo only questioned gotenks speed, this is Piccolo, if power an problem for gotenks Why didn't he said that instead of talking about speed? Finally the daiz says that ssj3 brings the power of the user to its limit meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks>Goku at the very least
"Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high"
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits"
Finally is says that gohan surpass the power of any saiyan
"Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.

Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."
"In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."
So Gohan and Gotenks being above goku is supported by both the manga and the daizenshuu

[mAcChaos]

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

Goku said that he doesn't know if he could beat Fat Boo as a SSJ3. Piccolo also knows that Fat Boo's power is a lie. So just because SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 tier doesn't mean it would be a clear and concise victory. There is no telling how strong Fat Boo could become if he got angry enough. And also Fat Boo is kind of immortal so taking him down in 1 shot is pretty difficult to do. You saw yourself that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was basically a 1 shot attack on Evil Boo. Yet it didn't finish him. Piccolo knows Fat Boo is very durable, he witnessed Fat Boo come back from literally nothing when Vegeta blew himself up. There are many uncertainties Piccolo would have to consider when sending SSJ Gotenks into battle, just because he has the power doesn't mean he has the speed to execute a finishing blow.

I wonder why the Genki Dama killed Buu but not Vegeta's self destruction, if they both wiped him completely out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I wonder why the Genki Dama killed Buu but not Vegeta's self destruction, if they both wiped him completely out.

Because unlike Vegeta's self-destruction, the Genki Dama destroyed every single cell of Boo. Vegeta's attack just turned Boo into small pieces.

[PerfectFreeza]

Vegeta and the others, not just Vegeta.The others could include SSJ3 Goku.

Not really - does that mean it can include Gohan too?
Goku is not equal to Vegeta, everyone knows that, they specifically mentioned Vegeta and not Goku for that reason.

Yes, Pre-Ultimate Gohan being included would make sense too.
He is equal with SSJ2 Goku.There is no evidence, that they did that on purpose.
After all, Daizenshuu says Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku, as it says SSJ3 brings up hidden power.

The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time.

Since half-Saiyans have higher hidden power, it means Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku at very least.

[Darkprince410]

FLAME BAIT ALERT!

Simple answer is he's not, and even if by some strange twisted logic that I don't personally subscribe too, it can't be much.

Gohan AND Gotenks were both suggested as helping Goku fight Pure Buu, meaning Kaboom's theory just couldn't hold true.
We have the Daizenshuu's statement saying that Gotenks Leveled up so much his strength surpassed Vegeta AFTER training.
We know that in the history of DBZ, no Sayjin has ever matched his SSJ power in base form, much less after 2 weeks of training.
We know that Gohan isn't THAT much stronger than Gotenks, Trunks begrudgingly admits it.
We know that Goku by the end of Z is looking for a worthy opponent - implying that no one is on Goku's level. I mean, he waited 10 years!
Of course, we know Goku says that him and Vegeta would be killed by Evil Buu ----BUT Goku was confident that he could at least manage something, even as a SSJ2 with Vegeta's help.
We know that KidBuu is stronger than FatBuu. We know that "Buff Buu" is stronger than Evil Buu. The Manga and Anime make no mention that KidBuu's power dropped, and Kaishinn wasn't somehow relieved that a supposedly weaker Buu showed up.
Fusion was suggested to beat Kidbuu

I think that covers it.

1) Simply insurance. They've missed many chances in the past to destroy Buu even when they've had the strength and tactical advantage, so just bringing all the big guns at once to destroy him is certainly a good plan.

2) You're making an assumption of the Daizenshuu entry to fit your beliefs, when it's been shown by many others on here that the entry can be open to interpretation. An interpretation just as feasible (and actually supported by the image that is shown in the Daizenshuu) is that Gotenks' base form, following Goten and Trunks' training, is now stronger than Vegeta's Ssj2 form. Given that the boys are by themselves not far behind their parents in terms of power (as established by the Daizenshuu stating that Goten was every bit as powerful as Gohan was) before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, a fusion between them using simple addition would almost certainly put them above their fathers at the same level.

3) You're just assuming that because we have no idea what the formula of the fusion dance is. Besides, by that reasoning, you're saying that Vegetto in his base form shouldn't be higher than Goku's Ssj form.

4) Just a few seconds beforehand Trunks was saying that Gohan wasn't even as strong as Gotenks. Remember, Trunks' entire motives have been to look cool during fights, so he's going to certainly try to boast about Gotenks' strength whenever he possibly could. Him begrudgingly admitting Gohan was "a little" stronger was him trying to still save face after Goten corrects him. What we see from Gohan and Buu's fight definitively shows though that Gohan was significantly stronger than Buu, who was basically dead even with Gotenks.

5) Gohan has turned to a scholarly way of life and the boys have no interest in fighting anymore. Why would he look to them for a good fight when their hearts aren't in it anymore? Besides, maybe he doesn't see them worth fighting because he knows he wouldn't stand a chance against them? He's looking for a good fight, not a massacre, so why would he want to fight them when he's so severely outclassed?

6) Goku never once said that he was confident they would be able to manage something when he and Vegeta were alone. The only thing he said was that Buu's ki had dropped considerably, but he still saw himself and Vegeta as being too weak to be able to fight him. It's clear from the bravado he exhibited when he challenged Evil Buu that he was attempting to bluff his way out and likewise didn't know that his ki had been reduced as a result of the change in size.

It was actually Pure Buu (Kid Buu) that he said that he felt they were able to manage something on.

7) Except that there was a very clear indication of it, which you're ignoring because you don't believe the validity of Goku's statement. Goku clearly points out that he and Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance if they left Buu's body, not knowing that his strength was reduced as a result of their size (as a result, he's basing it on the strength he would have outside). Then, after escaping and watching Evil Buu revert to Kaioushin Buu, his strength is established as increasing. Then, right after he reverts back to Pure Buu, Goku says that they'll now be able to manage something. So we have Evil Buu being too strong for them, Kaioushin Buu being even stronger than Evil Buu, and then Pure Buu being something they felt they could handle. That's as clear an indicator of a huge drop in power as one would need.

Kaioushin's entire fear of Pure Buu stems from his pure evil nature, unable to be controlled or suppressed. He never once says that he fears Pure Buu for his power, and instead makes many statements about his pure evil and uncontrollable behavior.

8 ) Fusion was suggested multiple times to defeat Evil Buu. Goku established that if they had the Potaras, they would have been able to defeat Evil Buu once they left his body (further indicating that he was too strong for them individually), then later suggested they use the Fusion Dance, and then again, right as they're confronting Evil Buu within his body, Goku, in an exasperated state, berates Vegeta for destroying the Potaras again. In turn, Goku's one statement about the Potaras for Pure Buu was that it'd just make the fight a breeze, and not that it was their only course of action available to them.

I'd also like to point out that the Battle of the Gods official bios establishes Gohan as being stronger than any pure-blooded Saiya-jin (fusions excluded), which is an official source outright saying that Gohan is stronger than his father.

To remain on topic though, I feel that Gohan could be in the ballpark of maybe 150-175x as strong as Ssj3 Goku if you go by how I interpret the Daizenshuu entry. With base Gotenks being stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, that would put Ssj3 Gotenks at over 400x Ssj2 Vegeta's strength (which in turn works out to be somewhere above 100x Ssj3 Goku's strength). If you assume simple addition of battle powers and that Ssj3 Gotenks and Evil Buu were equal or near equal in strength, that would put Gotenks Buu as 200x Ssj3 Goku's strength. Since Gohan was stronger than Evil Buu but weaker than Gotenks Buu, that would put him in between 100-200x Goku's strength.

Against my better judgement, I'll bite.
1. Stupid. I'm not saying you are, but Gotenks has a strict X minute time limit in SSJ3, while Gohan has no such restriction. If anything, bringing both would be a libilty on having Buu absorb someone and power up again. Besides, if Gohan was 10-1000times stronger ( this is Captian Ginyu to Freeza levels we are talking about here, laughable in my opinon, but whatever) This should be nothing but Cannon fodder for Gohan. That wasn't implied at all. The difference between being twice as strong as someone would be Goku vs Raditz. Nothing of the sort is implied.

2. I'm not making ANY assumptions. It says what it says. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta (Goku is not mentioned) and Leveled up to become stronger AFTER traning. Unless you think they more than doubled their strength in 14 days, they aren't going to be that much stronger, much less SSJ3 Goku level. But this isn't about Gotenks, it's about How awesome Goku is, and how Gohan probably isn't stonger (if only by a little)

3. You're logic is lacking in...well, logic. No matter what the multiplier is, we've never seen a character DOUBLE his strength in 2 weeks, much less a 50X increase that I've seen some people claim. I don't care what the Daizen says about Gohan compared to Goten - that has nothing to do with Gotenks, Goku or Ultimate Gohan. We do know that Goten is absolutely weaker than Goku, even as an SSJ.

4. Obviously Trunks is an idiot, who believed he could take Buu in base. (but actually knew he'd need SSJ3, as him and Goten already agreed they wanted to make the fight more dramatic) but we have nothing to deny the claim that Gohan is only a 'little" stronger than Gotenks.

5. Yeah, whatever. Or it could be that Gohan is no longer a challenge for Goku. But make up whatever story helps you sleep at night.

6. Don't make me post the scans again. I don't know how someone who is so wrong, so frequently will just post up shit to argue. It's hilarious to be quite honest. Goku doesn't think he can beat Buu in his present state, which we are lead to believe is due to size. Say whatever you want, Goku looked pretty confident that he could at least blow a hole in buu and escape, to which Buu reminded them that they are too small to be effective.

7. There is no indicator because nothing is stated - ever, by anyone. At all. Not in any media. Period. You are wrong. And Goku didn't state ANYTHING about managing something, that comment was Vegeta who made fun of his size, while gloating that they would be able to handle it. The Kai's immediately recommended fusion to fight him, as they did with Gotenks/Gohan Buu.

AT a 150X gap, again, that's like Kirilln vs 3rd form Freeza, effectively making the main character of the show usless foder. I don't think any sane realistic person would believe that.

1) I still see it as being insurance. With Gohan there, the only person that Buu could absorb that would put him too strong for Gohan to beat would be Gohan himself. If he absorbed Vegeta, that would put him too strong for Goku to handle, if he absorbed Gotenks, that'd put him too strong for Goku to handle, and so on. It may seem risky to bring the two strongest fighters there since one could get absorbed, but Goku felt that was a safer option than going and trying the Genki Dama.

2) No, you are making an assumption. All the entry says is that after training, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. It doesn't mention what form of Vegeta he surpassed and what form he has to be in to surpass it. Given every thing that's established up to that point in the manga though, we know that Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin is already above Ssj2 level strength, otherwise neither Goku nor Piccolo would have even entertained the idea of Gotenks fighting Fat Buu. Likewise, we know that Goku feels that Ssj Gotenks should be Ssj3 tier because he fully expected to be able to sense Gotenks from Kaioushin's planet when he realized he could no longer sense Evil Buu. Besides, we don't know the fusion dance's formula, but if it's anything near as powerful as the Potara fusion, Gotenks in his base form could easily surpass Ssj2 Vegeta.

3) The Daizenshuu establishes that Goten is just as strong as Gohan, who, while weaker than his father, isn't so by any drastic level. The gap between Gohan and Goku would have to be tremendous for a fusion between Goten and Trunks (at the bare minimum) to equal Goku in the same form, let alone surpass it.

4) He's simply trying to save face, that's all. The fact that he, just a second beforehand, was saying that Gohan was only about as strong as Gotenks, immediately puts into doubt how accurate his reluctant statement is. It's no different than someone being unable to open a bottle and then someone else come in after and easily pop it open, only for that first person to make a retort that he "loosened it" for said person. We know that he didnt and that the second guy was just that much stronger than the first, but the first is trying to save face by making the second's achievement seem less amazing.

5) There's no need for such remarks. Given that there's no indicator that Goku has finally surpassed Gohan and Gotenks by this point in the story and that Gohan has devoted himself to the life of a scholar and the boys aren't interested in fighting anymore, that's plenty of a reason for him to not see them as people he wants to fight. He was vastly weaker than them beforehand, and there's nothing saying that he's closed the gap enough to change that.

6) Goku says that he and Vegeta won't stand a chance against Buu period, and we find out later that Goku isn't aware that the reduction in their size resulted in a reduction in their strength. He's not going to say that he and Vegeta stand no chance against Buu and not consider all the forms available to them. If he thought for a second that he could beat Evil Buu while a Super Saiya-jin 3, he easily would have attempted it, but he established quite adamantly that the two of them would be killed. Explain to me why Goku wouldn't want to use Super Saiya-jin 3 to destroy Evil Buu (and instead want to try and find a way to weaken him further), but would gladly use it against Pure Buu, if Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu as you claim? We know it's not because Goku is weaker because of his size (because we find out that he wasn't aware of that fact until after the statement) and there is absolutely no reason for him to not want to use Ssj3 if it would be enough to destroy Evil Buu.

7)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Evil Buu > Ssj3 Goku and Ssj2 Vegeta

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Kaioushin Buu > Evil Buu

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Right there is Goku outright saying that they might finally be able to manage something, whereas before, with Evil Buu, while he was glad that his strength had dropped considerably, he was still adamant that they needed to drop it down more in order to be able to beat him. His "We did it!" even goes back to what was said and being done inside Buu's body beforehand. They went in to remove Gohan and the others in order to weaken him, and while they were "almost there" beforehand when reverting him to Evil Buu, it wasn't until he reverted down to Pure Buu that he felt they finally did it and weakened him to a point to where they could actually beat him. While Vegeta's comment is clearly about Buu's physical size, you have to realize that Goku isn't one to judge someone by their physical appearance, and in fact is one of the last to ever do something like that.

Kaioushin also wanted everyone to gang up on Babi-di's men and thought that Gohan was the strongest fighter at the Budoukai. He's not the best judge of strength by any means, and he's biased in his feelings regarding Pure Buu because that particular Buu killed off two of his closest friends and associates, and ravaged the universe ages ago. He knows Buu's unpredictability and uncontrollable nature better than anyone else there, and would want him destroyed immediately at all costs. Goku rejecting to fuse to beat Pure Buu, despite being adamant about needing to beforehand to defeat Evil Buu, is a pretty good indication that Evil Buu is stronger. Yes, Goku makes a comment about the Potaras later, but he still believes that he could beat Buu without him (just that the Potaras would have made it a cinch).

You also seemed to miss my statement as to how the Battle of the Gods official bio for Gohan establishes him as being stronger than any pure-blooded Saiya-jin (fusions excluded). That's an official source putting Gohan above his father.

[Axiom]

The problem is that Goku would be as relevent as Piccolo/Krillin in DBZ. I don't think that was the intention.

But it was. Originally, Toriyama planned to have Gohan as the main protagonist (with Goten & Trunks/Gotenks on his side), with Goku most likely remaining dead. However, he decided that Gohan wasn't very fitting in the role, so he took Gohan & Gotenks out of the way, brought Goku back to life, and used Vegetto as a plot device to bring Boo at Goku's level.

Goku is not equal to Vegeta, everyone knows that

They are equals in base/SS/SS2 after Vegeta got the power-up from Babidi.

Except they Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3, meaning he's weaker than Goku. I don't understand why you want to twist this to say something that it obviously doesn't. Goku isn't mentioned an I don't see the implication that Goku is somehow interchangable with Vegeta. So by modifying the story, he doesn't power Goku up, he just leaves him 100X time s weaker? Ok.

He was already stronger than him, base gotenks pre rosat was able to survive a fight against fat buu while the likes of dabura weren't able to do it, actually trunks told goten they would only need base to fight super buu which means they were already stronger, gotenks was even felt from the supreme kai where only ssj3 tiers could be felt, when gotenks appeared Piccolo only questioned gotenks speed, this is Piccolo, if power an problem for gotenks Why didn't he said that instead of talking about speed? Finally the daiz says that ssj3 brings the power of the user to its limit meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks>Goku at the very least
"Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high"
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits"
Finally is says that gohan surpass the power of any saiyan
"Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.

Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."
"In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."
So Gohan and Gotenks being above goku is supported by both the manga and the daizenshuu

I don't even, what is...what?
We don't see Gotenks match with Buu to say what happened, but to imply you have to Be att SSJ3 level to survive Buu is stupid, for lack of a better word. Vegeta is weaker than FatBuu, but survived KidBuu in base form, does that mean SSJ2 = base Vegeta = Fatbuu?

You can't choose to ignore the guidebook because it's not convient to your theory, it makes you arguement look weaker than it already is, and reflects poorly on you as well.
Second, Gohan is said to surpass Gotenks - notice Goku is again NOT listed. Notice that Gohan's power is described as surpassing a pure Saiyan, as in singular, as in not ALL. Enough of this crap, please.

[Saiyatonian]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

Toriyama, the same guy who thought SSJ3 Goku was SSJ2 Goku, lol.

Don't be an asshole. The guy wrote his story 20 years ago. Do you really expect him to know everything right off the bat?

[Axiom]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

Toriyama, the same guy who thought SSJ3 Goku was SSJ2 Goku, lol.

Don't be an asshole. The guy wrote his story 20 years ago. Do you really expect him to know everything right off the bat?

Made me smile.

[goku the krump dancer]

Since the manga and official guides and such are so wishy-washy and conflicted on the topic and can be interpreted multiple ways, I settle for a compromise. I consider Gotenks and Gohan to average between 2-3x stronger than Goku overall. That's significantly stronger, enough that he can't fight the same forms of Boo that they can, but he isn't so far behind that he couldn't catch up to them after a few years.

This outlook is admittedly a bit weaselly in some small areas (though I challenge you to find one that isn't), but doesn't strictly contradict anything and helps some of the movies and other post-Z material mesh with the series a little bit.


(P.S. - In a moderator capacity, I will be watching this thread like a hawk watches a crippled chipmunk.)

Basically this!! Plus we've seen time and again that power gaps don't have to be monster high in order for someone to be out classed.

[Stark the lone wolf]

He was already stronger than him, base gotenks pre rosat was able to survive a fight against fat buu while the likes of dabura weren't able to do it, actually trunks told goten they would only need base to fight super buu which means they were already stronger, gotenks was even felt from the supreme kai where only ssj3 tiers could be felt, when gotenks appeared Piccolo only questioned gotenks speed, this is Piccolo, if power an problem for gotenks Why didn't he said that instead of talking about speed? Finally the daiz says that ssj3 brings the power of the user to its limit meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks>Goku at the very least
"Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high"
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits"
Finally is says that gohan surpass the power of any saiyan
"Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.

Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."
"In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."
So Gohan and Gotenks being above goku is supported by both the manga and the daizenshuu

I don't even, what is...what?
We don't see Gotenks match with Buu to say what happened, but to imply you have to Be att SSJ3 level to survive Buu is stupid, for lack of a better word. Vegeta is weaker than FatBuu, but survived KidBuu in base form, does that mean SSJ2 = base Vegeta = Fatbuu?

You can't choose to ignore the guidebook because it's not convient to your theory, it makes you arguement look weaker than it already is, and reflects poorly on you as well.
Second, Gohan is said to surpass Gotenks - notice Goku is again NOT listed. Notice that Gohan's power is described as surpassing a pure Saiyan, as in singular, as in not ALL. Enough of this crap, please.[/quote]
We know that he survived WITHOUT HELP, gohan would have died if kibito wasn't there to heal him and Dabura got owned rather easily, your example doesn't make sense as Kid Buu was even trying to kill him, the daiz says "VEGETA AND THE OTHERS" which would logically meant that he is talking about Vegeta, Goku and the others, by relying only on the daiz it just shows how biased you are and can come with a good argument without using it, again Why didn't Piccolo questioned Gotenks power? Why did he only questioned Gotenks speed? How is Gotenks below vegeta if he was felt from the supreme kai world where only ssj3 could be sensed? So saying it just surpass the power of a pure saiyan is talking about pure saiyans except Goku? How convenient, your argument is poor, it relies on a single quote that is contradicted by the manga which is more valid than the daiz, we even saw how goku was afraid of fighting super buu even when vegeta's help, so don't bother to reply unless you have a real argument because the only thing you say is "Goku is the best, goku is the strongest" Gohan>>gotenks>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goku is a fact, get over it

[RandomGuy96]

Mechasilver? Is that you?

Fun fact: the Daizenshuu also states Goten has the same battle power as Gohan and that Gotenks is tens of times stronger than Goten. So it's literally mathematically impossible, following the Daiz, for Goku to be in the same league, even if it's just an addition of powers- and the Daiz tells us that it's not.

Of course, you could just take that to mean Gotenks IN GENERAL is tens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks. Which would factor in SS3 and let you get away with making the boost relatively small, like I do. But that would still make Gotenks way way stronger than Goku.