How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?

[Stark the lone wolf]

Mechasilver? Is that you?

.

Who? Sorry but you mistook me for someone else, anyway the only thing that says that goku is the strongest is the anime

[Hitiro]

Piccolo didn't send Gotenks, he went on his own. And if Gotenks was SsJ3 power, why was Piccolo worried aboit a time limit? It should have been a 1 shot fight.

Goku said that he doesn't know if he could beat Fat Boo as a SSJ3. Piccolo also knows that Fat Boo's power is a lie. So just because SSJ Gotenks was SSJ3 tier doesn't mean it would be a clear and concise victory. There is no telling how strong Fat Boo could become if he got angry enough. And also Fat Boo is kind of immortal so taking him down in 1 shot is pretty difficult to do. You saw yourself that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was basically a 1 shot attack on Evil Boo. Yet it didn't finish him. Piccolo knows Fat Boo is very durable, he witnessed Fat Boo come back from literally nothing when Vegeta blew himself up. There are many uncertainties Piccolo would have to consider when sending SSJ Gotenks into battle, just because he has the power doesn't mean he has the speed to execute a finishing blow.

It doesn't matter what we think or feel or say - we KNOW (because it's been stated) that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after his training and he leveled up. Moving on from there, Gotenks didn't sense Buu's power increase, but believed that his SSJ3 was powerful enough to actually beat him. He even tells Goten that they will start off in base and finish him in SSJ3. From those two points, we KNOW he wasn't powerful enough orginally. Considering Goku was confident that he could beat the FatBuu (as was Gotenks) I'd put them all (Goku, Gohan and Gotenks in that order) around the same realm of power - especially considering Vegeta's comments on Goku's SSJ3 power.

You say it doesn't matter what we think or feel or say. But you are the one who is taking the quote about Gotenks strength in the Daizenshuu and stating it must be SSJ3 Gotenks only surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta. Where the actual sentence never makes any relevance to their forms. The guidebooks never says anything about in what area or forms Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in. That is just your assumption based on what you feel. For all we know the guidebooks could be talking about base only. And you are also moving on to a much different point now by starting talking about Evil Boo. The argument is, if SSJ Gotenks was that much under SSJ2 Vegeta. Then why did Piccolo not say something? Piccolo was quick to note that base Gotenks would have no chance against Fat Boo. Yet all he is worried about when he is SSJ Gotenks is his speed in getting the job done in the 30 mins. That seems to imply Piccolo thought:

SSJ Gotenks' strength > Fat Boo' strength

Which would clearly mean he is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. If you want to include the Daizenshuu text on Gotenks strength then SSJ Gotenks would have to be pretty close to SSJ2 Vegeta for Piccolo to not complain about his strength in SSJ. At the end of the day the guidebooks are just secondary and supplementary information to the actual manga. If the manga says something then it should be taken over the guidebooks.

Even if we assume SSJ Gotenks was only something like 1.1x - 1.5x stronger than SSJ Vegeta then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku by the same amount.

[RandomGuy96]

Like I said, I think fusions get smaller transformation boosts due to more dormant power being on the surface. Something like the Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 multipliers being halved would make everything work very nice. Maybe even less than that, if you take SS Gotenks' feats against Super Buu seriously.

Hitiro, the Genki Dama thing is an interesting point. No matter how you slice it, or what unknown scale genki and ki in general works on, a power level of 30 billion (assuming a population of around 6 billion for DB Earth) is still viewed as a somewhat relevant addition to Ultimate Gohan's ki (Gohan's ki still seems to form the majority of the Genki Dama, though). As I highly doubt that SS3 Goku is below 24 billion himself, this would be more evidence to the difference between the Fusion Saga tiers and Pure Buu/Goku not being insane, just very, very large. I just question the whole thing based on the boys not forming Gotenks, though maybe this could be because they were just revived and are not at full power, or it may be PIS.

It's implied that Pure Buu > 33% of Gohan, though not by a whole lot. 33% of Gohan's ki still has a chance of killing Pure Buu, wiping him completely out:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Notice the "even this" and the "probably", as well as his clarification that it just might not be able to completely wipe him out. It implies that 33% of Gohan =< Pure Buu, most likely.

[Hitiro]

Hitiro, the Genki Dama thing is an interesting point. No matter how you slice it, or what unknown scale genki and ki in general works on, a power level of 30 billion (assuming a population of around 6 billion for DB Earth) is still viewed as a somewhat relevant addition to Ultimate Gohan's ki (Gohan's ki still seems to form the majority of the Genki Dama, though). As I highly doubt that SS3 Goku is below 24 billion himself, this would be more evidence to the difference between the Fusion Saga tiers and Pure Buu/Goku not being insane, just very, very large. I just question the whole thing based on the boys not forming Gotenks, though maybe this could be because they were just revived and are not at full power, or it may be PIS.

It's implied that Pure Buu > 33% of Gohan, though not by a whole lot. 33% of Gohan's ki still has a chance of killing Pure Buu, wiping him completely out:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Notice the "even this" and the "probably", as well as his clarification that it just might not be able to completely wipe him out. It implies that 33% of Gohan =< Pure Buu, most likely.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified better. I was saying that if you take 6 billion to 8 billion people and times them by the average battle power for earthlings, which is 5. Then you would have a Ki amount of 30 billion to 40 billion. That is correct. But you are forgetting to only take 33% of that. If we are going to say the portion of Genki that everyone has is around 33% of their overall ki then you would have to get 33% of 30 billion and 40 billion. Which is 9.9 billion and 13.2 billion. So you can see what I was talking about here. That is a miniscule amount. And assuming Gohan was at 60 billion and you took 33% of his overall ki for the Genki portion it would be 19.8 billion. Which would but the Genki Dama at 29.7 billion to 33 billion. You can see why I put Goku below 50% Freeza from this.

Because again, giving the whole population a power level of 5 is way too generous and having a population of 6 to 8 billion is also very generous. Also, assuming Genki is 33% of people overall ki is probably being generous too.

[RandomGuy96]

Hitiro, the Genki Dama thing is an interesting point. No matter how you slice it, or what unknown scale genki and ki in general works on, a power level of 30 billion (assuming a population of around 6 billion for DB Earth) is still viewed as a somewhat relevant addition to Ultimate Gohan's ki (Gohan's ki still seems to form the majority of the Genki Dama, though). As I highly doubt that SS3 Goku is below 24 billion himself, this would be more evidence to the difference between the Fusion Saga tiers and Pure Buu/Goku not being insane, just very, very large. I just question the whole thing based on the boys not forming Gotenks, though maybe this could be because they were just revived and are not at full power, or it may be PIS.

It's implied that Pure Buu > 33% of Gohan, though not by a whole lot. 33% of Gohan's ki still has a chance of killing Pure Buu, wiping him completely out:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Notice the "even this" and the "probably", as well as his clarification that it just might not be able to completely wipe him out. It implies that 33% of Gohan =< Pure Buu, most likely.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified better. I was saying that if you take 6 billion to 8 billion people and times them by the average battle power for earthlings, which is 5. Then you would have a Ki amount of 30 billion to 40 billion. That is correct. But you are forgetting to only take 33% of that. If we are going to say the portion of Genki that everyone has is around 33% of their overall ki then you would have to get 33% of 30 billion and 40 billion. Which is 9.9 billion and 13.2 billion. So you can see what I was talking about here. That is a miniscule amount. And assuming Gohan was at 60 billion and you took 33% of his overall ki for the Genki portion it would be 19.8 billion. Which would but the Genki Dama at 29.7 billion to 33 billion. You can see why I put Goku below 50% Freeza from this.

Because again, giving the whole population a power level of 5 is way too generous and having a population of 6 to 8 billion is also very generous. Also, assuming Genki is 33% of people overall ki is probably being generous too.

I did take 33% of that. I assumed a population of 6 billion, average PL of 5, coming out to 30 billion ki and 10 billion genki. Like I said, 33% Gohan =< Pure Buu is suggested, so I'd place Gohan higher than that. I just didn't want to make too many assumptions about how the genki to ki thing worked, so just settled on saying that a total power level of 30 billion is still relevant to whatever Ultimate Gohan's power level is.

Hence, I'd get SS3 Goku being 24.4 billion and Pure Buu being around 27 billion, and Gohan being 70 billion, with 1/3 being about 23 billion. Add this to 1/3 of Kibitoshin's, Piccolo's, Goten's, and Trunks' combined ki and you get (by my estimates) 25.7 billion. This fits that portion of the Genki Dama being implied to be about as strong as Pure Buu, but probably not enough to completely wipe him out. Add the humans' genki of 10 billion and you get 35.7 billion, which is now enough. Simple.

It's not really generous. I explained this before, but physical strength and ki are clearly different. Since humans don't train with ki, there should be no reason for the short fat old farmer to have a higher power level than a child, or a lower power level than a healthy young adult. 6 billion is also a decent estimate for simplicity's sake; it was about the population of real world Earth at the time of the manga, and we don't know enough about DB Earth to say what their population is. It all ends up nice and neat, and makes sense.

Genki may be higher, honestly. It's vitality, which should be more important than courage or state of mind. I'm just assuming everything is evenly distributed for simplicity's sake.

[Hitiro]

Hence, I'd get SS3 Goku being 24 billion and Pure Buu being around 26 billion, and Gohan being 70 billion, with 1/3 being about 23 billion. Add this to 1/3 of Kibitoshin's, Piccolo's, Goten's, and Trunks' combined ki and you get (by my estimates) 25.7 billion. This fits that portion of the Genki Dama being implied to be about as strong as Pure Buu, but probably not enough to completely wipe him out. Add the humans' genki of 10 billion and you get 35.7 billion, which is now enough. Simple.

It's not really generous. I explained this before, but physical strength and ki are clearly different. Since humans don't train with ki, there should be no reason for the short fat old farmer to have a higher power level than a child, or a lower power level than a healthy young adult. 6 billion is also a decent estimate for simplicity's sake; it was about the population of real world Earth at the time of the manga, and we don't know enough about DB Earth to say what their population is. It all ends up nice and neat.

Genki may be higher, honestly. It's vitality, which should be more important than courage or state of mind.

Ki will vary from person to person. A baby will not be born with a battle power of 5 on earth. It is only when humans reach the pinnacle or prime of their lives that they will have the most amount of ki. After that it is probably a steady decline as they get older and become weaker. I think its more than stated that as the Z warriors start getting older their ki would drop unless they keep training but their gains would slowly decrease as they have to try and keep up with the decrementing affect age will have on their ki.

If Goku was 70 it might be something like this:

Training yeilds: +1000 ki a day.
Aging past prime: -500 ki a day.

And as he gets older he will have to train harder to keep his ki from declining because the older he gets the more decline he'll experience.

[RandomGuy96]

Ki will vary from person to person. A baby will not be born with a battle power of 5 on earth. It is only when humans reach the pinnacle or prime of their lives that they will have the most amount of ki. After that it is probably a steady decline as they get older and become weaker. I think its more than stated that as the Z warriors start getting older their ki would drop unless they keep training but their gains would slowly decrease as they have to try and keep up with the decrementing affect age will have on their ki.

If Goku was 70 it might be something like this:

Training yeilds: +1000 ki a day.
Aging past prime: -500 ki a day.

And as he gets older he will have to train harder to keep his ki from declining because the older he gets the more decline he'll experience.

Show me a guidebook or manga quote that says that a human baby's ki < an adult human's ki? Like I said, there's a clear difference between physical strength and ki strength.

Perhaps it's different for humans; since they don't try to gain more ki, they're stuck with the same amount from birth to death, which by extension means they can't really lose any. We really don't get any info on them.

[Hitiro]

Show me a guidebook or manga quote that says that a human baby's ki < an adult human's ki? Like I said, there's a clear difference between physical strength and ki strength.

Perhaps it's different for humans; since they don't try to gain more ki, they're stuck with the same amount from birth to death, which by extension means they can't really lose any. We really don't get any info on them.

I don't need to really show that stuff. Wasn't it said in an interview that BoG Goku was it his strongest? And EoZ is Goku with some decline? How are you supposed to have a lot of ki with a small body? You saw what happens when Goku and Vegeta shrink inside Evil Boo. Do you think body size has no bearing on how much ki an individual can naturally hold without training? Goku left planet Vegeta with a battle power of 5. Do you think growing up his ki wouldn't naturally increase if he didn't train and he would be stuck at fighting with a powerlevel of 5 if Grampa Gohan hadn't taken him in? Raditz wasn't surprised at Goku's battle power at all. It was kind of expected he would get to that level through maturity. We also saw Piccolo Jr. not train as a child. His battle power just raised in the 3 years maturing and then he did some training before the tournament. Ki is as much to do with getting older as growing in my opinion.

I think it is implied in the manga itself that as you get mature your ki is higher and as you get old your ki will drop.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Of course, you could just take that to mean Gotenks IN GENERAL is tens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks. Which would factor in SS3 and let you get away with making the boost relatively small, like I do. But that would still make Gotenks way way stronger than Goku.

But this can't be possible, since SS4 Gogeta is also stated to be dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. So, base Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than base Goten/Trunks.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

He can't. He can't ever. Gotenks was stated by Goku himself to be in the ball park of eight times Goku's strength (at least) BEFORE the ROSAT. After, he's suggested to be a thousand times stronger. The Daizenshuu implies dozens of times stronger. Goku, while young, did seven years of intense Otherworld training and probably didn't even double his power. He's not ever catching up to Gohan, probably not even if Gohan is "only" 3 times stronger. Besides, Toiryama said BOG is Goku in his prime, and that age is catching up to him by the EoZ.

Toriyama, the same guy who thought SSJ3 Goku was SSJ2 Goku, lol.

Don't be an asshole. The guy wrote his story 20 years ago. Do you really expect him to know everything right off the bat?

He re-read his manga as people claim he did. So he should have remembered SSJ3 but he didn't. Don't insult others for pointing out a fact.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He re-read his manga as people claim he did. So he should have remembered SSJ3 but he didn't. Don't insult others for pointing out a fact.

No, he saw that he had forgotten very important things like SS3, and then he re-read the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Of course, you could just take that to mean Gotenks IN GENERAL is tens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks. Which would factor in SS3 and let you get away with making the boost relatively small, like I do. But that would still make Gotenks way way stronger than Goku.

But this can't be possible, since SS4 Gogeta is also stated to be dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. So, base Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than base Goten/Trunks.

Don't really care. Gotenks is a manga character; SS4 Gogeta is a GT character. Toei can do whatever they want with him.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I really don't get how some think Goten and Trunks' base levels are that close to Goku's base. Android #18 was after all giving SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks a rather hard time towards the end of the tournament. SSJ Goku is wayy far beyond any of the Androids by the Buu Saga. Goten's base less than 2x weaker than Goku's? I don't get that.

I have SSJ Goten at like maybe 100,000,000 on my power level list, unfused.

Anyway, on the main point of this thread. I have Ultimate Gohan 5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, 2x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Also it was proven many times that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu.. But stronger than Fat Buu. He's somewhere in the middle in terms of power between the 2 other forms.

[RandomGuy96]

I really don't get how some think Goten and Trunks' base levels are that close to Goku's base. Android #18 was after all giving SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks a rather hard time towards the end of the tournament. SSJ Goku is wayy far beyond any of the Androids by the Buu Saga. Goten's base less than 2x weaker than Goku's? I don't get that.

I have SSJ Goten at like maybe 100,000,000 on my power level list, unfused.

Anyway, on the main point of this thread. I have Ultimate Gohan 5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, 2x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Also it was proven many times that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu.. But stronger than Fat Buu. He's somewhere in the middle in terms of power between the 2 other forms.

The Daizenshuu states Goten has the same battle power as Buu Saga Gohan. After the ROSAT, he powered up massively. He gave Gohan a hard time in sparring also; as we saw with Goku vs the Ginyus, if the gap is anywhere near x2, that whole scene wouldn't have happened. After the ROSAT, he's 50% of Goku at the very worst.

18 and the SS kids never fought. All that happened was Trunks fired an ultra-suppressed blast at Goten's behest, which 18 freaked out about. SS kids > 18 is all that's apparent there.

There's no way that the kids are weaker than Freeza. No way.

He can't be twice as strong as Gotenks, since Buutenks is Gotenks + a power weaker than Gotenks, and he's still way above Gohan.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I realize they are hybrid born saiyan children with higher potential to start with, but really, I must ask what kind of training could they have done to be any stronger than I suggest? Especially if Goten never even used a gravity chamber before, or ever been in the ROSAT before the Buu Saga....

[RandomGuy96]

I realize they are hybrid born saiyan children with higher potential to start with, but really, I must ask what kind of training could they have done to be any higher than I suggest? Especially if Goten never even used a gravity chamber before, or ever been in the ROSAT before the Buu Saga....

"Training" doesn't matter. There is no logic at all to power ups in the series. All official material and feats put them really close to Goku.

But if you want an in-universe answer, mastering Super Saiyan + play fighting with each other. That's exactly how Goku and Gohan got so strong in the Cell Saga. It's bullshit-y, but Goku did it first.

[ABED]

He gave Gohan a hard time in sparring also

I'll leave you guys to contemplate the math, but but I just wanted to comment on this. How much can you really tell about Gohan's power in comparison when he's sparring with his little brother?

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I thought Goten had a hard time keeping up with Gohan when they were sparring.

[RandomGuy96]

He gave Gohan a hard time in sparring also

I'll leave you guys to contemplate the math, but but I just wanted to comment on this. How much can you really tell about Gohan's power in comparison when he's sparring with his little brother?

It's an issue of speed and reflexes; if he was actually fighting back, then the sequence may be in question, but that's not what happened. Goku at 90,000 was so fast that the Ginyus couldn't see him. Gohan was sweating and obviously exerting effort dodging Goten. Therefore, Goten isn't less than half of Gohan. Simple.

I thought Goten had a hard time keeping up with Gohan when they were sparring.

He couldn't hit Gohan, but Gohan had a hard time dodging. Goten also barley knows how to use his immense power. He couldn't even fly.

[ABED]

He gave Gohan a hard time in sparring also

I'll leave you guys to contemplate the math, but but I just wanted to comment on this. How much can you really tell about Gohan's power in comparison when he's sparring with his little brother?

It's an issue of speed and reflexes; if he was actually fighting back, then the sequence may be in question, but that's not what happened. Goku at 90,000 was so fast that the Ginyus couldn't see him. Gohan was sweating and obviously exerting effort dodging Goten. Therefore, Goten isn't less than half of Gohan. Simple.

I thought Goten had a hard time keeping up with Gohan when they were sparring.

He couldn't hit Gohan, but Gohan had a hard time dodging. Goten also barley knows how to use his immense power. He couldn't even fly.

But Gohan wasn't really trying that hard. Sparring strength is different than battle strength.