Are you happy that Toriyama made Goku the hero again?

[dbzfan7]

No guidebook said Gohan have better potential. The guidebooks said Half Saiyans. So don't forget Goten and Trunks next time xD. That's rude to say Goku fanboy. Just say someone who supports MCD(Main Character disease) which makes Main characters the strongest. But seriously it's inlogical for Goku to surpass Gohan even if he train. Oob is the only hope of a hero besides Vegetto to surpass Gohan. Even Akira Toriyama said Goku was at his peak at BoG and he still was weaker than Gohan. So pretty much age screws him of any chance of surpassing Gohan.

Take this debate to this Topic
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=24572

http://web.archive.org/web/201109250406 ... #son_gohan

Right there it states what I said

Like I said there is no way Goku could get as much of a boost as Gohan when is potential is inferior. In BOG profiles Gohan is still stated as stronger (excluding SSJG of course). Hell Goku had less screen time than Gohan did in Z.

Goku's biggest gains came from Zenkai's and Kaio's training which are now obsolete. After that he never got anything even close to his 33x Zenkai boost. Gohan had guru and basically just pure training and caught up to Goku and surpassed him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Fused characters don't count, and Gohan had a mystical power up that Goku didn't. If Gotenks counts, then so does Vegetto who is easily the strongest character on the show.

But the whole debate is if Goku can surpass U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks.

All those times you show Gohan surpassing Goku, he did it first, and it was because Goku showed that path that Gohan anyone was able to reach those levels. Goku is an innovator, everyone else plays catch up. Gohan may have had latent power when he was a child, but when we first see him, he was easily defeated because it only went up when Gohan was angry.

We've agreed about this. We know that Goku is a far greater fighting genius than Gohan. Gohan had the potential to surpass Goku, and Goku showed him the way.

Where did that number come from?

Goten/Trunks are less than 2 times weaker than Goku. Gotenks is stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goten/Trunks, and base Gotenks is implied to be stronger than SS2 Vegeta/Goku after RoSaT. So, SS3 Gotenks is 400 times stronger than SS2 Goku, or, 100 times stronger than SS3 Goku. And U. Gohan is even stronger than SS3 Gotenks, though less than twice.

Assuming that's true, there's nothing stopping Goku from getting the same power up.

But there is. Goku can't get a hundred of times any more. He couldn't get twice stronger in base after 7 years of hard training in Heaven with Kaio. Super Saiyan 3 is stated to be the limit after all.

Where did you get this idea?

The Daizenshuu state that Goten is as strong as Gohan. However, this is contradicted by Gohan's statement about Goten & Trunks that they will soon surpass him if he keeps skipping training. So, they are weaker than Gohan, but not extremely weaker. They are definitely stronger than pre-RoSaT Super Saiyans, since SS Trunks' suppressed ki blast was dangerous for #18. Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

No, Goku was a prodigy, he augmented it with hard work.

He had trained under Earth's greatest martial artists (Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Karin, Mr. Popo, and even Kami), and had his dormant power drawn out, yet he was weaker than freaking Raditz, who was a weakling.

Goku's goal is to be the strongest.

Like I said, he said it himself to Gohan while inside the RoSaT that his goal was to become the #2 in the universe, with Gohan as #1. By the end of the manga though, there is also Goten, Pan, Oob, and maybe Trunks. So, his goal at that point must be for him to be #5 or #6 in the universe, with Gohan, Goten, Pan, Oob, and perhaps Trunks above him.

No guidebook said Gohan have better potential.

Someone hasn't done his homework.

Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.
Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes.

He's a pacifist who from the time he was little has dreamed of becoming a scholar, rather than fighting. Because he is half Saiyan and half Earthling, his latent power is above average, but since he doesn't like voluntarily fighting or training, it was essential that he be trained by Piccolo and his father Goku. He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku. Even with great evil gone from the world, he continues to punish the city's evildoers as a hero of justice.

[TheGmGoken]

Someone hasn't done his homework.

It was a joke that he didn't say anything about Half Saiyans all together and just said Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Fused characters don't count, and Gohan had a mystical power up that Goku didn't. If Gotenks counts, then so does Vegetto who is easily the strongest character on the show.

But the whole debate is if Goku can surpass U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks.

All those times you show Gohan surpassing Goku, he did it first, and it was because Goku showed that path that Gohan anyone was able to reach those levels. Goku is an innovator, everyone else plays catch up. Gohan may have had latent power when he was a child, but when we first see him, he was easily defeated because it only went up when Gohan was angry.

We've agreed about this. We know that Goku is a far greater fighting genius than Gohan. Gohan had the potential to surpass Goku, and Goku showed him the way.

Where did that number come from?

Goten/Trunks are less than 2 times weaker than Goku. Gotenks is stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goten/Trunks, and base Gotenks is implied to be stronger than SS2 Vegeta/Goku after RoSaT. So, SS3 Gotenks is 400 times stronger than SS2 Goku, or, 100 times stronger than SS3 Goku. And U. Gohan is even stronger than SS3 Gotenks, though less than twice.

Assuming that's true, there's nothing stopping Goku from getting the same power up.

But there is. Goku can't get a hundred of times any more. He couldn't get twice stronger in base after 7 years of hard training in Heaven with Kaio. Super Saiyan 3 is stated to be the limit after all.

Where did you get this idea?

The Daizenshuu state that Goten is as strong as Gohan. However, this is contradicted by Gohan's statement about Goten & Trunks that they will soon surpass him if he keeps skipping training. So, they are weaker than Gohan, but not extremely weaker. They are definitely stronger than pre-RoSaT Super Saiyans, since SS Trunks' suppressed ki blast was dangerous for #18. Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

No, Goku was a prodigy, he augmented it with hard work.

He had trained under Earth's greatest martial artists (Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Karin, Mr. Popo, and even Kami), and had his dormant power drawn out, yet he was weaker than freaking Raditz, who was a weakling.

Goku's goal is to be the strongest.

Like I said, he said it himself to Gohan while inside the RoSaT that his goal was to become the #2 in the universe, with Gohan as #1. By the end of the manga though, there is also Goten, Pan, Oob, and maybe Trunks. So, his goal at that point must be for him to be #5 or #6 in the universe, with Gohan, Goten, Pan, Oob, and perhaps Trunks above him.

No guidebook said Gohan have better potential.

Someone hasn't done his homework.

Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.
Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes.

He's a pacifist who from the time he was little has dreamed of becoming a scholar, rather than fighting. Because he is half Saiyan and half Earthling, his latent power is above average, but since he doesn't like voluntarily fighting or training, it was essential that he be trained by Piccolo and his father Goku. He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku. Even with great evil gone from the world, he continues to punish the city's evildoers as a hero of justice.

We're moving this to the in-universe thread. Also Goken was joking.

[ABED]

He had trained under Earth's greatest martial artists (Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Karin, Mr. Popo, and even Kami), and had his dormant power drawn out, yet he was weaker than freaking Raditz, who was a weakling.

Temporarily, but he soon surpassed him, the King of Worlds, the Prince of all Saiyans and the most powerful being in the universe all within the span of a year.

[TheGmGoken]

He had trained under Earth's greatest martial artists (Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Karin, Mr. Popo, and even Kami), and had his dormant power drawn out, yet he was weaker than freaking Raditz, who was a weakling.

Temporarily, but he soon surpassed him, the King of Worlds, the Prince of all Saiyans and the most powerful being in the universe all within the span of a year.

Why didn't post this in the IN UNIVERSE thread. this is GF thread. So I don't think stuff like this is allowed since this is a debate. Just saying. MOST GF stuff are Media and Fan opinions(Who your fave character ect)

[dbzfan7]

I'll let the arguments move to the other thread.

Anyways I just hope other characters get ova's for themselves.

[TheGmGoken]

I'll let the arguments move to the other thread.

Anyways I just hope other characters get ova's for themselves.

I;ll take a short OVA or a 30 minute one for less known characters and 60 minutes for popular ones. I do wish we see Gohan in action as the main hero one more time as a Kid WITHOUT Goku's help. Hell even the Saiyans should get a OVA for the War they had with the tuffles

[dbzfan7]

I'll let the arguments move to the other thread.

Anyways I just hope other characters get ova's for themselves.

I;ll take a short OVA or a 30 minute one for less known characters and 60 minutes for popular ones. I do wish we see Gohan in action as the main hero one more time as a Kid WITHOUT Goku's help. Hell even the Saiyans should get a OVA for the War they had with the tuffles

I would rather it be Adult Gohan. I personally think Goku should not have appeared in Movie 10 and instead Vegeta did. He, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks would save the day.

[ABED]

Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

Trunks was quick enough to punch his father, true, but even a weaker opponent can get a lucky shot.

Exactly SPARRING partner. Gohan was not putting out his full strength, and he was a little rusty.

Here's the thing about dormant power, notice that it's only about as much as the hero needs in order to fight the villain. If Goku got a power up in the Buu arc, you can be sure it won't be as little as he got from the Super Spirit Water.

[TheGmGoken]

Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

Trunks was quick enough to punch his father, true, but even a weaker opponent can get a lucky shot.

Exactly SPARRING partner. Gohan was not putting out his full strength, and he was a little rusty.

THe hell are you responding to? Also why aren't you putting this in a thread made for this debate?

[dbzfan7]

Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

Trunks was quick enough to punch his father, true, but even a weaker opponent can get a lucky shot.

Exactly SPARRING partner. Gohan was not putting out his full strength, and he was a little rusty.

Gohan would have had an easier time if he fought back, but Goten is so close that he would surpass Gohan soon if he didn't watch it. I'd say post Rosat he did just that.

[TheGmGoken]

but Goten is so close that he would surpass Gohan soon if he didn't watch it. I'd say post Rosat he did just that.

At the same time Gohan was training so it balance outs.

[ABED]

Goten's power was also big enough to frighten Gohan & to become a great sparring partner for him as well, and Trunks was also strong enough to hit Vegeta during training.

Trunks was quick enough to punch his father, true, but even a weaker opponent can get a lucky shot.

Exactly SPARRING partner. Gohan was not putting out his full strength, and he was a little rusty.

Gohan would have had an easier time if he fought back, but Goten is so close that he would surpass Gohan soon if he didn't watch it. I'd say post Rosat he did just that.

But it doesn't mean much since characters constantly one up each other. Goku gets stronger than Freeza, then Cell gets stronger than him, then Gohan gets stronger than Cell, then Goku gets stronger than him, then Gohan gets stronger than him, and so the cycle goes.

Goten is so close that he would surpass Gohan soon if he didn't watch it

That's not just because Goten's own strength, strength atrophies over time.

[dbzfan7]

but Goten is so close that he would surpass Gohan soon if he didn't watch it. I'd say post Rosat he did just that.

At the same time Gohan was training so it balance outs.

Well I mean initial Gohan from the beginning of course. Sorry.



Anyways You really overestimate the hell out of Goku and underestimate the halflings. They make Goku's gains with less than half the effort.

[ABED]

Anyways You really overestimate the hell out of Goku and underestimate the halflings. They make Goku's gains with less than half the effort.

Many of those gains required Goku showing them the way, even if just metaphorically.

[dbzfan7]

Anyways You really overestimate the hell out of Goku and underestimate the halflings. They make Goku's gains with less than half the effort.

Many of those gains required Goku showing them the way, even if just metaphorically.

Goten didn't have Goku and he was already close to Gohan. He trained in the ROSAT and most likely surpassed initial Gohan. Goku has nothing left to teach Gohan. Gohan already knows how Goku trains.

[TheGmGoken]

Anyways You really overestimate the hell out of Goku and underestimate the halflings. They make Goku's gains with less than half the effort.

Many of those gains required Goku showing them the way.

Goten got his power FAR before Goku even knew he was born(Talk about being a bad father lol) and it was Piccolo's idea to use ROSAT. Goku just wanted to use fusion. Trunks isn't Goku's son. Gohan only had a guide for Gohan being SSJ. Gohan's Mystic, Namek, 11 months of training, 3 years with the android wait(It was Piccolo AND Goku and I doubt that was showing Gohan the way moment and was just fighting), and Raditz was not Goku AT ALL. So no most of those gains wasn't Goku's way at all.

[dbzfan7]

A lot of Goku's gains were either Zenkai abuse or teachers. So he hardly had no guidance either.

[TheGmGoken]

A lot of Goku's gains were either Zenkai abuse or teachers. So he hardly had no guidance either.

373x of Zenkai from the spaceship to the fight with Freeza. That alone is WTF. Now I think about without teachers Goku would have been still running around with the power level of 10 while Gohan without teacher and rage would be in the thousands.