Are you happy that Toriyama made Goku the hero again?

[Insertclevername]

Even though a lot of what users have said about Gokuu being the better choice does make sense, I just can't for the life of me feel excited for post Freeza arc Gokuu. I just don't feel like anything accomplishment afterwards means a whole lot; as if his arc has been completed. Anyone feel the same or is it just me?

[dbzfan7]

Even though a lot of what users have said about Gokuu being the better choice does make sense, I just can't for the life of me feel excited for post Freeza arc Gokuu. I just don't feel like anything accomplishment afterwards means a whole lot; as if his arc has been completed. Anyone feel the same or is it just me?

Yeah he doesn't accomplish too much after this. He gets benched most of the next saga and then loses. He then gets retconed into being an asshole in the Boo saga.

[TheGmGoken]

Even though a lot of what users have said about Gokuu being the better choice does make sense, I just can't for the life of me feel excited for post Freeza arc Gokuu. I just don't feel like anything accomplishment afterwards means a whole lot; as if his arc has been completed. Anyone feel the same or is it just me?

IMO he wasnt Goku no more. I think SSJ did change his base form persona. He was more..cocky and jerkish. I

[ABED]

Goten got his power FAR before Goku even knew he was born(Talk about being a bad father lol) and it was Piccolo's idea to use ROSAT. Goku just wanted to use fusion. Trunks isn't Goku's son. Gohan only had a guide for Gohan being SSJ. Gohan's Mystic, Namek, 11 months of training, 3 years with the android wait(It was Piccolo AND Goku and I doubt that was showing Gohan the way moment and was just fighting), and Raditz was not Goku AT ALL. So no most of those gains wasn't Goku's way at all.

I thought I was clear that it wasn't purely literal. Goten wouldn't have had the strength to turn Super Saiyan had Goku not because apparently the law of acquired traits doesn't apply in the Dragon Ball World. Trunks isn't Goku's son, but he is Vegeta's and it's doubtful Vegeta would've achieved Super Saiyan had Goku not been there.

Gohan wouldn't have turned Super Saiyan 2 without his father's skill for battle. He probably wouldn't have been much stronger than Trunks, or would've made the same mistake he did and increase his strength but sacrifice speed.

I meant that the other Saiyans built off of Goku's accomplishments.

No, Gohan wouldn't have been in the 1000s had Goku not increased his strength throughout Dragon Ball.

The difference between Goku having teachers and the people who learn from Goku is that Goku takes what he learns and innovates with it.

Even though Goku didn't change that much after the Freeza arc, I still prefer him as the hero. He's just a character I enjoy reading. I get the feeling that things will be okay with him around, I don't get that feeling with Gohan.

[TheGmGoken]

I thought I was clear that it wasn't purely literal. Goten wouldn't have had the strength to turn Super Saiyan had Goku not because apparently the law of acquired traits doesn't apply in the Dragon Ball World. Trunks isn't Goku's son, but he is Vegeta's and it's doubtful Vegeta would've achieved Super Saiyan had Goku not been there.

A,...a....Are you really doing this? You're really doing this? You're going to do well since Goku was a SSJ in a way he gave Goten power which also gave Trunks power because Vegeta turned SSJ cause of Goku. Okay first of all you want to use that logic? Then who ever was the guy who told Goku to go to Earth is the hero of the story. Bardock is Goku's father so because of him a SSJ happen on Planet Namek. Bardock's oldest ancestor is the true hero of the story ladies and gentlemen.

Gohan wouldn't have turned Super Saiyan 2 without his father's skill for battle. He probably wouldn't have been much stronger than Trunks, or would've made the same mistake he did and increase his strength but sacrifice speed.

Gohan would still turn SSJ2 regardless of Goku's skill. Gohan got so mad he transformed. He didn't force it like Trunks did. Gohan got pissed. Just like how Goku got pissed.

I meant that the other Saiyans built off of Goku's accomplishments.

Don't you mean the other SAIYAN. Only Vegeta did that.

No, Gohan wouldn't have been in the 1000s had Goku not increased his strength throughout Dragon Ball.

Rage boast. Most likely would have kept going up.

The difference between Goku having teachers and the people who learn from Goku is that Goku takes what he learns and innovates with it.

He still fights like a turtle hermit. He doesn't really innovate anything cept for Shudokan Ido(Instant transmission)

[qjz123]

I liked that Toriyama made Goku the hero in the end. Gohan was pitifully weak and annoying in his first fight vs Buu prior to his mystic power up. It was nice to see Goku's story come full circle. He went from being the little kid that Bulma hit with her car to being an incredibly powerful fighter who had the fate of the Universe rested upon his shoulders.

[dbzfan7]

Goku seemed to only innovate the Kamehameha. Other then that he had a stronger body to use higher levels of Kaio-Ken. Got stronger to use higher SSJ levels. Not much to go by.

[ABED]

Gohan would still turn SSJ2 regardless of Goku's skill. Gohan got so mad he transformed. He didn't force it like Trunks did. Gohan got pissed. Just like how Goku got pissed.

He wouldn't have had the power had Goku not gotten him to that point. Gohan needed Goku's guidance to reach it. Goku got pissed to turn Super Saiyan but he first had to reach a certain level of strength for that to happen. If not, he would've turned Super Saiyan when Kuririn died.

No, all other Super Saiyans owe Goku because I doubt any of them would've reached that level or even thought to had someone not gotten there first, and Goku was the only one who could've.

Rage boast. Most likely would have kept going up.

First, it's "boost", and notice how much stronger Goten was than Gohan at a similar age. It has a lot to do with the father's strength during time of conception.

He still fights like a turtle hermit. He doesn't really innovate anything cept for Shudokan Ido(Instant transmission)

He came up with innovative ways to use those attacks, he and Vegeta thought of "beyond Super Saiyan", Goku reached Super Saiyan and SS3. His training methods were innovative and lead to great increases. He's quick on his feet. He figured out how to draw power for the Genkidama not just from the planet he was on. He figured out how to shoot a Kamehameha with his feet. Goku's sneak attack against Freeza from under the water was innovative and clever.

[TheGmGoken]

If not, he would've turned Super Saiyan when Kuririn died.

ANgry didn't even make SSJ nor the Saiyans at that point. That's an unfair judgement.

He wouldn't have had the power had Goku not gotten him to that point. Goku got pissed to turn Super Saiyan but he first had to reach a certain level of strength for that to happen.

His rage boast would had gave him the power of the SSJ2 or enough to go SSJ2 For a short amount of time.

No, all other Super Saiyans owe Goku because I doubt any of them would've reached that level or even thought to had someone not gotten there first, and Goku was the only one who could've.

Bardock . You said other saiyans. The boys are half Saiyans. Also please don't try to say without Goku Trunks and Goten would't be SSJ. That's a poor excuse. Yes Vegeta turned SSJ out of jealous of Goku. Yes Goten was made when Goku was a SSJ. But seriously don't try to make a chain effect. They got SSJ without Goku's help. They're naturally gifted in power.

First, it's "boost", and notice how much stronger Goten was than Gohan at a similar age. It has a lot to do with the father's strength during time of conception.

First I say "Boast" not boost. Not everyone talk the same. Yes I know what boast means. I just like to make up my own pronunciations of words. Ever seen me say Genki Dami instead of Genki Dama? Same thing applies here. Gohan was way out of Goku's league when he was 5. Goten was even with Cell Games Goku perhaps. That's not the same. Gohan had amuch bigger gap between him and daddy than Goten and Goku.

He came up with innovative ways to use those attacks, he and Vegeta thought of "beyond Super Saiyan", Goku reached Super Saiyan and SS3. His training methods were innovative and lead to great increases. He's quick on his feet. He figured out how to draw power for the Genkidama not just from the planet he was on. He figured out how to shoot a Kamehameha with his feet. Goku's sneak attack against Freeza from under the water was innovative and clever.

Goku reached SSJ was being innovative AT ALL. Goku reaching SSJ3 wasn't innovative AT ALL. His training methods were only good for other people. I don't think less than 2x increase is a good increase and his past increase was just Zenkai. ROSAT was sparring. Gathering energy was other planets isn't innovative. The planets were close. Quick on his feat = SPEED. His sneak attacks were just clever. Only innovative was feet kamehameha and Instant transmission. I have a question for you.

Goku wouldn't go anywhere without guidance either and yet for Goku that's okay, but for the boys it's not. Why do you think that?

[ABED]

His rage boast would had gave him the power of the SSJ2 or enough to go SSJ2 For a short amount of time.

Gohan's been pissed before.

Bardock . You said other saiyans. The boys are half Saiyans.

You're splitting hairs.

Also please don't try to say without Goku Trunks and Goten would't be SSJ. That's a poor excuse. Yes Vegeta turned SSJ out of jealous of Goku. Yes Goten was made when Goku was a SSJ. But seriously don't try to make a chain effect. They got SSJ without Goku's help. They're naturally gifted in power.

It's not an excuse, the stronger the father gets, the stronger the progeny. Case in point, Goten and Trunks turned SS without the required anger. Maybe they were angry, but I can't fathom what would upset a 7 year old that much.

Gohan was way out of Goku's league when he was 5. Goten was even with Cell Games Goku perhaps. That's not the same. Gohan had amuch bigger gap between him and daddy than Goten and Goku.

And they got that way because Goku was where he was when he passed his genes to them.

Goku reached SSJ was being innovative AT ALL. Goku reaching SSJ3 wasn't innovative AT ALL. His training methods were only good for other people. I don't think less than 2x increase is a good increase and his past increase was just Zenkai. ROSAT was sparring. Gathering energy was other planets isn't innovative. The planets were close. Quick on his feat = SPEED. His sneak attacks were just clever. Only innovative was feet kamehameha and Instant transmission. I have a question for you.

Goku wouldn't go anywhere without guidance either and yet for Goku that's okay, but for the boys it's not. Why do you think that?

Quick on his feet means he can think quickly, you had to know that.
I consider SS3 innovative since no one thought of it and no one else reached it before him.

Gathering energy from other planets is innovative because he wasn't told he could do that to my knowledge. Who cares if they were close? Is millions of miles technically close?

Goku would get pretty damn far even without guidance. Unlike his sons, Goku was always aiming for something higher and better. They wouldn't have even thought to go past Super Saiyan. I doubt they would've thought to go Super Saiyan had he not gotten there to show them how (I don't mean literally). His sons get to where they do through flukes and genetics. Goku has a fair bit of those as well, but he trains far harder and many of his trials to achieve those increases make them feel more earned.

[TheGmGoken]

His rage boast would had gave him the power of the SSJ2 or enough to go SSJ2 For a short amount of time.

Gohan's been pissed before.

Bardock . You said other saiyans. The boys are half Saiyans.

You're splitting hairs.

Also please don't try to say without Goku Trunks and Goten would't be SSJ. That's a poor excuse. Yes Vegeta turned SSJ out of jealous of Goku. Yes Goten was made when Goku was a SSJ. But seriously don't try to make a chain effect. They got SSJ without Goku's help. They're naturally gifted in power.

It's not an excuse, the stronger the father gets, the stronger the progeny. Case in point, Goten and Trunks turned SS without the required anger. Maybe they were angry, but I can't fathom what would upset a 7 year old that much.

First quote: each time gave him bigger power did it not.
Second quote: You're one to talk. You honestly just pulled a fucking chain effect using logic that would make Goku's mother the hero of the story.

Quote 3: It's is an excuse. You're using logic that makes Goku's mommy the hero of the story for giving birth to Goku which gives Goku life to do these things. Also I'm talking about gaps between their fathers and the kids. Gohan as a kid had a HUGE gap against his dad. Goten however was perhaps equal or almost as strong as Cell Arc Goku.

[dbzfan7]

So I guess Goku's mom must have had special genes or something too.

[TheGmGoken]

So I guess Goku's mom must have had special genes or something too.

The proper genes to create the hero of our story that just so happens to hit his head on Earth. But the genes already knew it was going to happen to it prepared Goku by giving it the SSJ gene

[Kid Buu]

Yes. I enjoyed the concept of the humans contributing to Goku's Genki Dama to beat Buu, Vegeta's redemption, & Mr. Satan's character growth from gag character to hero in the finale of Buu battle.

[dbzfan7]

So I guess Goku's mom must have had special genes or something too.

The proper genes to create the hero of our story that just so happens to hit his head on Earth. But the genes already knew it was going to happen to it prepared Goku by giving it the SSJ gene

Maybe the original SSJ God was related to Goku and so Goku was always destined to be strong?

[ABED]

It did, but only because Gohan's base was stronger each time. Every time Gohan got a boost it was stronger because he was stronger.

Quote 3: It's is an excuse. You're using logic that makes Goku's mommy the hero of the story for giving birth to Goku which gives Goku life to do these things. Also I'm talking about gaps between their fathers and the kids. Gohan as a kid had a HUGE gap against his dad. Goten however was perhaps equal or almost as strong as Cell Arc Goku.

It's not an excuse. Granted all of the Saiyans have a genetic advantage when it comes to increasing their powers, but since Goku and Vegeta's progeny are stronger because Goku was stronger, I'd say the father is directly responsible. Is it anymore of an excuse than the characters getting ridiculous power ups in order to allow them to fight enemies far stronger than them (eg Freeza)?

[TheGmGoken]

It did, but only because Gohan's base was stronger each time. Every time Gohan got a boost it was stronger because he was stronger.

And look at that. Goku DID NOTHING to help Gohan get to that level. So Gohan could have easily went SSJ had someone died. With that he get pissed off even more and bam SSJ2.

It's not an excuse. Granted all of the Saiyans have a genetic advantage when it comes to increasing their powers, but since Goku and Vegeta's progeny are stronger because Goku was stronger, I'd say the father is directly responsible.

You said Goku is the reason why Trunks went SSJ since Vegeta went SSJ cause of GOku. That's the excuse I mean. That means by logic Goku's mommy is the hero of the story because she gave birth to him. How is Goku responsible for Gohan's power? Explain. Gohan has the hidden power because he got human emotions and the fact his mother is CHI CHI. So Chi Chi had more to do with Gohan power than Goku. Piccolo trained Gohan and then krillin sparred with Gohan on Namek. Gohan then kept fighting on Namek thus getting stronger. So...Goku only responsible for GOhan was ROSAT. Which(I go by the anime on this one) Gohan got SSJ cause he didn't want to be left behind and want to protect. Gohan went SSJ2 cause of 16's speech. Besides being a sparring partner what did Goku do? JACK SHIT. Now answer this question. It's okay for Goku to have teachers and guidance to help him get better. Then when his kids and Trunks get's a teacher all in sudden it's not fair or it's not right.

[ABED]

It did, but only because Gohan's base was stronger each time. Every time Gohan got a boost it was stronger because he was stronger.

And look at that. Goku DID NOTHING to help Gohan get to that level. So Gohan could have easily went SSJ had someone died. With that he get pissed off even more and bam SSJ2.

It's not an excuse. Granted all of the Saiyans have a genetic advantage when it comes to increasing their powers, but since Goku and Vegeta's progeny are stronger because Goku was stronger, I'd say the father is directly responsible.

You said Goku is the reason why Trunks went SSJ since Vegeta went SSJ cause of GOku. That's the excuse I mean. That means by logic Goku's mommy is the hero of the story because she gave birth to him. How is Goku responsible for Gohan's power? Explain. Gohan has the hidden power because he got human emotions and the fact his mother is CHI CHI. So Chi Chi had more to do with Gohan power than Goku. Piccolo trained Gohan and then krillin sparred with Gohan on Namek. Gohan then kept fighting on Namek thus getting stronger. So...Goku only responsible for GOhan was ROSAT. Which(I go by the anime on this one) Gohan got SSJ cause he didn't want to be left behind and want to protect. Gohan went SSJ2 cause of 16's speech. Besides being a sparring partner what did Goku do? JACK SHIT. Now answer this question. It's okay for Goku to have teachers and guidance to help him get better. Then when his kids and Trunks get's a teacher all in sudden it's not fair or it's not right.

No, that's not what I meant. Gohan increased his power but those rages you are talking about are temporary and the power he gets from them don't last. The reason the rage boosts increase is because his base power increases through training, transformations or through magic (Kaioshin and The Grand Elder)

You're using insane troll logic. That's a Buffy reference, don't take it as an insult, please.

I've already stated my reasons and I don't feel like restating them hoping you'll get it this time. If you get my point, fine, if not, that's okay as well. ANd I didn't say they couldn't have help or a teacher, I was getting at the fact that Goku pushed past his limits and showed that there was something more. Gohan and Goten aren't that type of fighter.

[TheGmGoken]

No, that's not what I meant. Gohan increased his power but those rages you are talking about are temporary and the power he gets from them don't last

I know this. Hence why I said he KEPT fighting which increased his power. Just like it did Krillin.

. The reason the rage boosts increase is because his base power increases through training, transformations or through magic (Kaioshin and The Grand Elder)

Training he didn't get from Goku. So Goku is NOT responsible for his son's power.

You're using insane troll logic.

Really. You snoop that low. Seriously. You said because of Goku Vegeta went SSJ which means Trunks had SSJ. Which you then said Goku indirectly caused Trunks to have SSJ(Or at least implied it). When using that logic Goku's mother is indirectly the reason Trunks went SSJ. She gave birth to Goku who made Vegeta turn SSJ out of being jealous that he wasn't a SSJ. Who then had a kid named Trunks. Who now have SSJ. See how dumb that sounds? That was the logic you was using.

[ABED]

No, that's not what I meant. Gohan increased his power but those rages you are talking about are temporary and the power he gets from them don't last

I know this. Hence why I said he KEPT fighting which increased his power. Just like it did Krillin.

. The reason the rage boosts increase is because his base power increases through training, transformations or through magic (Kaioshin and The Grand Elder)

Training he didn't get from Goku. So Goku is NOT responsible for his son's power.

You're using insane troll logic.

Really. You snoop that low. Seriously. You said because of Goku Vegeta went SSJ which means Trunks had SSJ. Which you then said Goku indirectly caused Trunks to have SSJ(Or at least implied it). When using that logic Goku's mother is indirectly the reason Trunks went SSJ. She gave birth to Goku who made Vegeta turn SSJ out of being jealous that he wasn't a SSJ. Who then had a kid named Trunks. Who now have SSJ. See how dumb that sounds? That was the logic you was using.

Goku did train with Gohan TWICE.

No, you're right, thatlogic does sound assinine, but that wasn't my reasoning.

I didn't stoop, I was referencing Buffy, you missed the part where I wrote that. I was being facetious.