Are you happy that Toriyama made Goku the hero again?

[dbzfan7]

Goken's logic makes sense to me. Your's however does not.

[ABED]

Goken's logic makes sense to me. Your's however does not.

1 - No one else would even think to reach the levels Goku reached.
2 - Goten and Gohan were born with the abilities they were because the stronger Goku got, the stronger his progeny got when they were born. The law of inherited traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. Same thing with Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks had the strength he did because Vegeta was as strong as he was when he and Bulma conceived him.
3 - Goku's training is what allowed Gohan to reach SS2 when he did. Maybe he would've reached it eventually, but it was Goku's method of training that got him there as quickly as he did.
4 - Also, GOken's point about Chichi being more responsible is ridiculous. The kid still needs Saiyan blood.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku did train with Gohan TWICE.

I already mentioned those. Guess who not paying attention now . I said Goku wasn't responsible for Gohan's power as Gohan had other people that trained him more.

No, you're right, your logic does sound assinine, but that wasn't my reasoning.

Here a quote that you said:

Goten wouldn't have had the strength to turn Super Saiyan had Goku not because apparently the law of acquired traits doesn't apply in the Dragon Ball World. Trunks isn't Goku's son, but he is Vegeta's and it's doubtful Vegeta would've achieved Super Saiyan had Goku not been there.

Indirectly saying Trunks got SSJ cause of Goku. Which with that logic. Goku's mother is the hero because she gave birth to GOku which led to the events of the story. See the logic there.

No, you're right, your logic does sound assinine, but that wasn't my reasoning.

Funny that's not my logic. It was an example of what you was using.

1 - No one else would even think to reach the levels Goku reached.
2 - Goten and Gohan were born with the abilities they were because the stronger Goku got, the stronger his progeny got when they were born. The law of inherited traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. Same thing with Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks had the strength he did because Vegeta was as strong as he was when he and Bulma conceived him.
3 - Goku's training is what allowed Gohan to reach SS2 when he did. Maybe he would've reached it eventually, but it was Goku's method of training that got him there as quickly as he did.
4 - Also, GOken's point about Chichi being more responsible is ridiculous. The kid still needs Saiyan blood.

1. Vegeta. Both said to surpassed SSJ. Both knew SSJ2 after Gohan. A fan on this site explain how Goku got SSJ and Goku did not know of it.
2. Gohan had a rage hidden power(Most likely from Chi CHi side) while Goten was gifted. Both different cases. Gohan was a Saiyan connected to his human side more thus having more emotions. Goku power HAD nothing to do with Gohan rage and the fact Gohan had a LOW power level. Goten(Who got more of Goku than Gohan) was more or less a Human connected to his Saiyan side. He love fighting Trunks(Only good fighter that could't kill him easily) and thus got more power(See Piccolo and Goku training) cause of it. Once again wasn't Goku. Goten yes because of having more Goku got more power but Goku didn't cause him to be THAT strong.
3. Goku's training allowed him to reach SSJ not SSJ2. SSJ2 was because of 16. Who said you need a whole new power level got SSJ2.
4. I was pointing out that Chi Chi has anger and that Gohan had more in common with Chi Chi and that Goten had more in common with Goku

[dbzfan7]

Goken's logic makes sense to me. Your's however does not.

1 - No one else would even think to reach the levels Goku reached.
2 - Goten and Gohan were born with the abilities they were because the stronger Goku got, the stronger his progeny got when they were born. The law of inherited traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world.
3 - Goku's training is what allowed Gohan to reach SS2 when he did. Maybe he would've reached it eventually, but it was Goku's method of training that got him there as quickly as he did.

1. So nobody would think. "Hey I'm strong, but I can probably get stronger." I doubt that.

2. They weren't just strong because they were from Goku. They were strong because their potential was so much better than Goku that it allowed them to progress a lot faster than he did. Trunks isn't from Goku and the one from the Future was stuck training himself after Gohan died and became stronger than Namek Goku. Goten and Trunks became so powerful by just fighting each other. I doubt they would be strong if they never fought each other.

3. Goku's training helped Gohan speed up, but just like Gohan, Goku would get absolutely nowhere without guidance. Gohan got mostly more powerful without Goku's help. Goku didn't focus on Gohan during the Cyborgs either. It wasn't until the ROSAT he actually did. He seemed to focus on Piccolo as it would explain Piccolo's enourmous gains.

[ABED]

Goku did train with Gohan TWICE.

I already mentioned those. Guess who not paying attention now . I said Goku wasn't responsible for Gohan's power as Gohan had other people that trained him more.

No, you're right, your logic does sound assinine, but that wasn't my reasoning.

Here a quote that you said:

Goten wouldn't have had the strength to turn Super Saiyan had Goku not because apparently the law of acquired traits doesn't apply in the Dragon Ball World. Trunks isn't Goku's son, but he is Vegeta's and it's doubtful Vegeta would've achieved Super Saiyan had Goku not been there.

Indirectly saying Trunks got SSJ cause of Goku. Which with that logic. Goku's mother is the hero because she gave birth to GOku which led to the events of the story. See the logic there.

No, you're right, your logic does sound assinine, but that wasn't my reasoning.

Funny that's not my logic. It was an example of what you was using.

Piccolo trained Gohan slightly longer. Goku was with Gohan 10 months in the Room, and 3 years in preparation for the Cyborgs. Piccolo trained Gohan for a year (6 of which Gohan spent alone), and he was there for the 3 year preparation. It's not about the amount of time either. Goku's method of training was very important in Gohan reaching the level he reached in those 10 months. Remember, Goku and Gohan both got stronger than Trunks and Vegeta did even though they spent a far greater amount of time in the Room of Spirit and Time.

As for your point about Trunks, you inferred that. There's some of that, but I'm more referring to the law of acquired traits issue. So, your logic is flawed because you didn't get my point.

[TheGmGoken]

1 - No one else would even think to reach the levels Goku reached.
2 - Goten and Gohan were born with the abilities they were because the stronger Goku got, the stronger his progeny got when they were born. The law of inherited traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. Same thing with Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks had the strength he did because Vegeta was as strong as he was when he and Bulma conceived him.
3 - Goku's training is what allowed Gohan to reach SS2 when he did. Maybe he would've reached it eventually, but it was Goku's method of training that got him there as quickly as he did.
4 - Also, GOken's point about Chichi being more responsible is ridiculous. The kid still needs Saiyan blood.

1. Vegeta. Both said to surpassed SSJ. Both knew SSJ2 after Gohan. A fan on this site explain how Goku got SSJ and Goku did not know of it.
2. Gohan had a rage hidden power(Most likely from Chi CHi side) while Goten was gifted. Both different cases. Gohan was a Saiyan connected to his human side more thus having more emotions. Goku power HAD nothing to do with Gohan rage and the fact Gohan had a LOW power level. Goten(Who got more of Goku than Gohan) was more or less a Human connected to his Saiyan side. He love fighting Trunks(Only good fighter that could't kill him easily) and thus got more power(See Piccolo and Goku training) cause of it. Once again wasn't Goku. Goten yes because of having more Goku got more power but Goku didn't cause him to be THAT strong.
3. Goku's training allowed him to reach SSJ not SSJ2. SSJ2 was because of 16. Who said you need a whole new power level got SSJ2.
4. I was pointing out that Chi Chi has anger and that Gohan had more in common with Chi Chi and that Goten had more in common with Goku

Remember, Goku and Gohan both got stronger than Trunks and Vegeta did even though they spent a far greater amount of time in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Show me where Trunks and Vegeta trained TOGETHER and there is your answer.

As for your point about Trunks, you inferred that. There's some of that, but I'm more referring to the law of acquired traits issue. So, your logic is flawed because you didn't get my point.

I didn't inferred shit. You said it yourself.

Trunks isn't Goku's son, but he is Vegeta's and it's doubtful Vegeta would've achieved Super Saiyan had Goku not been there.

[ABED]

Goku thought he had reached his limit several times, it's not hard for me to believe anyone besides Vegeta would've tried pushing past that. Hell, it was only after being defeated by 18 that Vegeta even thought of "beyond Super Saiyan".

2. Being more like Goku in personality wouldn't mean that he would've had more power than Gohan as a baby. Remember, Goku was very weak for a Saiyan as a child. Again, The law of acquired traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. The stronger the Saiyans get, the stronger their half breed progenies get.
All the stuff you mentioned about Gohan's human half is ridiculous, Goku is capable of the same emotions and there's nothing in the manga that mentions what you inferred. The only thing said on the subject that I recall is Vegeta's ASSUMPTION that half breeds are more powerful than purebloods (which doesn't logically make sense).
3. Goku's training allowed Gohan to reach the strength required to get to Super Saiyan 2. If it didn't requir a whole new level of power, what angered Goku in the next world to allow him to reach that level, much less SS3?
4. CHichi does have anger issues, but Gohan's a happy kid.

Show me where Trunks and Vegeta trained TOGETHER and there is your answer.
They didn't train together, never said they did. They did however train at the same time in the same room, but it's irrelevant if they did or didn't. Vegeta and Trunks did in fact both train in the room of spirit and time twice, and their power increased tremendously. However, in spite of the fact that they both spent a greater amount of time than Goku and Gohan, they weren't nearly as strong. If they trained together, they MIGHT have been as strong but it's doubtful. A) GOku's pretty much been a step ahead of Vegeta since Namek, and B) Goku's training method of staying Super Saiyan all the time paid off in spades. You'd think Vegeta would've copied, though maybe not, he might not want to emulate Goku out of insecurity.

I did say that point about Vegeta and Trunks, but I also said more which you didn't quote.

[TheGmGoken]

Hell, it was only after being defeated by 18 that Vegeta even thought of "beyond Super Saiyan".

Goku said the same thing/ "If Vegeta can't beat them. Neither can I. I'm going beyond SSJ".

2. Being more like Goku in personality wouldn't mean that he would've had more power than Gohan as a baby. Remember, Goku was very weak for a Saiyan as a child. Again, The law of acquired traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. The stronger the Saiyans get, the stronger their half breed progenies get.

Somebody didn't understand what I'm saying nor did he read it apparently. I said Goten got MORE of Goku than Gohan. Which means he got more DNA of fighting than Gohan did. Since Saiyans were bred for battle I'm sure they have a fighting gene.

All the stuff you mentioned about Gohan's human half is ridiculous, Goku is capable of the same emotions and there's nothing in the manga that mentions what you inferred. The only thing said on the subject that I recall is Vegeta's ASSUMPTION that half breeds are more powerful than purebloods (which doesn't logically make sense).

It's harder for Saiyans to show their emotions than Humans. Hence why Vegeta had a hard time. Goku was riased by Humans so clearly he'll gained their way of life. Nothing in the manga? Look how much emotion Gohan showed and compare that to a Saiyan who was living with Saiyans. It took DYING for Vegeta to show some emotions. He cried for his race and pretty much said he loved Bulma and Trunks. And yes even Goku. Manga hints it.

3. Goku's training allowed Gohan to reach the strength required to get to Super Saiyan 2. If it didn't requir a whole new level of power, what angered Goku in the next world to allow him to reach that level, much less SS3?

*sigh* . Goku got SSj2 out of pure training same with SSJ3. Half Saiyans(With exception of Gotenks) needs emotion to transform. Gohan felt he was failing his friends and 16's speech. Hell even fucking Dragonball Heroes(King of WHat ifs) had Future Trunks going SSJ3 because he was mad. If DB Heroes even follows that. I'm sure it's almost fact. I don't even use video games in debate

4. CHichi does have anger issues, but Gohan's a happy kid.

I meant when she get's angry. She gets pissed. Like a gag version of Gohan's rage boast. Both can be happy but if you piss them off. It's a whole new level.

You know what. CODE ORANGE

[dbzfan7]

Code ORANGE indeed

I can't see how Goku gets this off scott free.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Hell even fucking Dragonball Heroes(King of WHat ifs) had Future Trunks going SSJ3 because he was mad. If DB Heroes even follows that. I'm sure it's almost fact. I don't even use video games in debate

Ignoring the fact that even the commercials take place in a game world, nothing in the video implies it was his first time transforming. He gets beaten down by Buu, gets mad, and ascends to SS3. For all we know, he could have already had it and the animation just showed a time where he got mad at Buu's actions and realized he needed that level to take out such a big treat immediately.

Plus, we're told Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than the previous levels. Pretty much implies it's not triggered by rage.

[ABED]

Code orange, i dont' know what that means

Somebody didn't understand what I'm saying nor did he read it apparently. I said Goten got MORE of Goku than Gohan. Which means he got more DNA of fighting than Gohan did. Since Saiyans were bred for battle I'm sure they have a fighting gene.

Still wouldn't change anything if Goten wasn't born when he was. It works out of universe as well. If Goten had been born earlier in the story, he wouldn't have been as strong.

Manga hints it.

Nope, it doesn't. You've just proven that males and Saiyans aren't as forthcoming with their emotions, not that it has anything to do with the amount of strength they put out. And Vegeta does show emotions, he shows intense anger many times throughout the series.

*sigh* . Goku got SSj2 out of pure training same with SSJ3. Half Saiyans(With exception of Gotenks) needs emotion to transform. Gohan felt he was failing his friends and 16's speech. Hell even fucking Dragonball Heroes(King of WHat ifs) had Future Trunks going SSJ3 because he was mad. If DB Heroes even follows that. I'm sure it's almost fact. I don't even use video games in debate

Goku needed emotion to transform into Super Saiyan 1.

[dbzfan7]

Hell even fucking Dragonball Heroes(King of WHat ifs) had Future Trunks going SSJ3 because he was mad. If DB Heroes even follows that. I'm sure it's almost fact. I don't even use video games in debate

Ignoring the fact that even the commercials take place in a game world, nothing in the video implies it was his first time transforming. He gets beaten down by Buu, gets mad, and ascends to SS3. For all we know, he could have already had it and the animation showed him getting mad at Buu's actions and realizing he needed that level to take out such a big treat immediately.

Plus, we're told Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than the previous levels. Pretty much implies it's not triggered by rage.

Well it only says SSJ3 is calmer than SSJ2. It says nothing about SSJ.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Well it only says SSJ3 is calmer than SSJ2. It says nothing about SSJ.

Ignoring Gohan, who is prone to rage anyway, nothing about SS2 seems all that different from SS in that aspect.

[dbzfan7]

Well it only says SSJ3 is calmer than SSJ2. It says nothing about SSJ.

Ignoring Gohan, who is prone to rage anyway, nothing about SS2 seems all that different from SS in that aspect.

Well in Gohan's case he became a total psychopath who delighted in Cell's pain and wanted him to suffer more. In SSJ he didn't have that feeling.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Well in Gohan's case he became a total psychopath who delighted in Cell's pain and wanted him to suffer more. In SSJ he didn't have that feeling.

That was the return of the personality shift from the new, unmastered form coupled with the rage boost. You can't say Gohan wouldn't have done the same thing in Super Saiyan without an example, which we never properly got. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, we don't actually get a good glimpse of Gohan's personality fresh outta his SS transformation. He was training with Goku to remove those feelings of unease; with the two of them probably heading towards the path of mastering the form subconsciously by actually sparring with each other (unlike Vegeta and Trunks), even before Goku decided that was their goal.

[dbzfan7]

Well in Gohan's case he became a total psychopath who delighted in Cell's pain and wanted him to suffer more. In SSJ he didn't have that feeling.

That was the personality shift coupled with the rage boost. You can't say Gohan wouldn't have done the same thing in Super Saiyan without an example, which we never properly got. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, we don't actually get a good glimpse of Gohan's personality fresh outta his SS transformation. He was training with Goku to remove those feelings; with the two of them probably heading towards the path of mastering the form subconsciously by actually sparring with each other (unlike Vegeta and Trunks), even before Goku decided that was their goal.

Well we see him furious as an SSJ but that's it. He mastered the form pretty quickly so I'm gonna say he wouldn't be as psychotic as he was in SSJ2.

[Dr. Machismo]

Story-wise, it would have been much better to keep Gohan as the star. I suppose some things interfered with this, like Gohan not being as appealing as Goku to many fans. That's part of why it would have been better to end the story with the Android saga.

Personally, though, I'm happy with how the Majin saga turned out. It's certainly the weakest arc Dragonball Z, but I still liked it. I also always found Goku leaving forever to be depressing, so I liked him returning to life.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Well we see him furious as an SSJ but that's it. He mastered the form pretty quickly so I'm gonna say he wouldn't be as psychotic as he was in SSJ2.

He and Goku both master the form very quickly once they decide to make that their goal, and we see what happens when daddy isn't there to push him in that direction by looking at his future counterpart.

The simple fact is that we can't say how Gohan would react with a rage boost while in the regular Super Saiyan state, because he never experiences one after he gains the first transformation without ascending to SS2 in the process. It's possible he would travel the same path he did after becoming a Super Saiyan 2, or the severity of the personality change might change depending on whether he had mastered the form already or not. Regardless, Gohan can't be used to set the precedent for how all other hybrids need to achieve the forms.

And as for whether or not Super Saiyan 2 increases that uneasy feeling beyond what a regular Super Saiyan would feel, I just don't see a huge shift in personality between any of the pre-mastered Super Saiyans and their Super Saiyan 2 counterparts, besides Gohan's RAGE state at the Cell games. So to me, SS3 has a calmer heart than both forms, but I'll accept that could be debatable to others.

[dbzfan7]

Well we see him furious as an SSJ but that's it. He mastered the form pretty quickly so I'm gonna say he wouldn't be as psychotic as he was in SSJ2.

He and Goku both master the form very quickly once they decide to make that their goal, and we see what happens when daddy isn't there to push him in that direction by looking at his future counterpart.

The simple fact is that we can't say how Gohan would react with a rage boost while in the regular Super Saiyan state, because he never experiences one after he gains the first transformation without ascending to SS2 in the process. It's possible he would travel the same path he did after becoming a Super Saiyan 2, or the severity of the personality change might change depending on whether he had mastered the form already or not. Regardless, Gohan can't be used to set the precedent for how all other hybrids need to achieve the forms.

And as for whether or not Super Saiyan 2 increases that uneasy feeling beyond what a regular Super Saiyan would feel, I just don't see a huge shift in personality between any of the pre-mastered Super Saiyans and their Super Saiyan 2 counterparts, besides Gohan's RAGE state at the Cell games. So to me, SS3 has a calmer heart than both forms, but I'll accept that could be debatable to others.

We don't see anything for Goku and Vegeta because they have long since got used to the form. This argument can work both ways. For me SSJ3 is only calmer than SSJ2 as it doesn't mention SSJ at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

2 - Goten and Gohan were born with the abilities they were because the stronger Goku got, the stronger his progeny got when they were born. The law of inherited traits doesn't apply in Dragon Ball world. Same thing with Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks had the strength he did because Vegeta was as strong as he was when he and Bulma conceived him.

Actually, Goten & Trunks are just born with the ability to turn Super Saiyan. They seem to have mastered Super Saiyan & also sparred during that, which is why they are so strong. Gohan did the same thing with Goku.