Super Saiyan as a child's plaything - Your thoughts

[rereboy]

Freeza still looked to be in far better condition than Goku. Freeza was able to destroy Namek's core and put up a good fight against Goku for a while.

Freeza doesn't have to have the same damage as Goku for the multiplier to work.

Official power levels for SSJ Goku and Freeza in Namek are 150.000.000 and 120.000.000 respectively, I believe. These are obviously meant to be taken as their full power, without considering damage, in my opinion. If we assume that SSJ Goku had 35.000.000 worth of damage, his power would be at 115.000.000. And if we assume that Freeza had only 15.000.000 worth of damage, his power level would be at 105.000.000.

That means that Goku could have had more than double the amount of damage affecting him that Freeza had, and still win like he did.

In this situation or any other like this the multiplier still works. It only stops working if we consider their damages to be worlds apart like I stated, but I see no reason to assume that. Freeza was obviously hurt after the Genki Dama.

[TheGmGoken]

What if Old Kai just did his ritual and gave all the Saiyans a Mystic form, doing away with SSJ1-3 altogether?

Then it'll go
Tarble
Gohan
Goten or Trunks
Trunks or Goten
Vegeta(according to BoG)
Goku

How do you figure Goku is last?

Ah don't get mad. I just put him last because compared to every one else Goku just haven't showed any hidden power worth noting.

[ABED]

Goku was down to around like 1 before transforming.

Ah don't get mad. I just put him last because compared to every one else Goku just haven't showed any hidden power worth noting.

No, because he pushed himself to his limits all the time. I'm not mad, just confused. Why would you put Tarble and even Vegeta above Goku? Finally, Kaioshin draws out power past limits.

[rereboy]

Goku was down to around like 1 before transforming.

Because he lacked stamina to keep going, not because he was that damaged. The transformation took care of the stamina problem. We must assume this to be true, otherwise his SSJ wouldn't have helped him much, if he was a 5 before transforming, his SSJ would only give him 250.

Either way, if you want to consider Goku's damage toll on his power, you also have to consider Freeza's damage, and I see no reason for them to have to be worlds apart. So, no reason for the multiplier not to work. And if you don't consider any damage or if you assume that their damage vanished with their transformations, there's also no reason for the multiplier not to work.

[TheGmGoken]

No, because he pushed himself to his limits all the time. I'm not mad, just confused. Why would you put Tarble and even Vegeta above Goku? Finally, Kaioshin draws out power past limits.

Tarble was obviously a joke. Vegeta pushed himself to the limits as well and showed more hidden power than Goku. Goku doesn't have a lot of it. He makes up for it by being a skilled fighter. Hidden Power isn't limits. There is a difference.

Gohan showed the most
Goten and Trunks are naturally skilled but since they're non tailed half saiyans one can argue that hidden hidden power is lesser than Gohan's.
Vegeta - Bullshit but BoG shows it
Goku - Pushes himself but not really showing off his hidden power.

[KentalSSJ6]

Just because the ritual brings out every ounce of a fighters potential doesn't mean they can get stronger. The ritual brings the fighters to their absolute limit but we know that limits in DBZ can be broken. Its like breaking the level cap in a rpg. They could still keep getting stronger with effort. Hell I'm willing to bet a Super Saiyan 10 would be possible, the only thing stopping the Saiyans from reaching stupidly high levels of power is their age, otherwise I'm sure Goku would unlock dozens of forms or gain so much power it would kill him.

[TheGmGoken]

Just because the ritual brings out every ounce of a fighters potential doesn't mean they can get stronger. The ritual brings the fighters to their absolute limit but we know that limits in DBZ can be broken. Its like breaking the level cap in a rpg. They could still keep getting stronger with effort. Hell I'm willing to bet a Super Saiyan 10 would be possible, the only thing stopping the Saiyans from reaching stupidly high levels of power is their age, otherwise I'm sure Goku would unlock dozens of forms or gain so much power it would kill him.

Wait is this referring to me? Cause I said the ritual brings out hidden power not the limits cause as you say they're easily brokken.

[KentalSSJ6]

I'm referring to the list where Goku is at the bottom. What I'm saying essentially is that even if Mystic Gohan is whatever times stronger than a SSJ3 Goku, given enough training Goku could close the gap. So even with the Kaioshin ritual a warrior could still be surpassed. If I had to say someone had the most to benefit from a Kaioshin ritual it would be Future Gohan.

[TheGmGoken]

I'm referring to the list where Goku is at the bottom. What I'm saying essentially is that even if Mystic Gohan is whatever times stronger than a SSJ3 Goku, given enough training Goku could close the gap. So even with the Kaioshin ritual a warrior could still be surpassed. If I had to say someone had the most to benefit from a Kaioshin ritual it would be Future Gohan.

Oh I know Goku could surpass the ritual of Gohan(But his age plays a HUGE factor) and had he been mystic himself. I'm saying out of everyone Goku most likely have the least hidden power due to him breaking limits all the time

[KentalSSJ6]

Its debatable. I think hes so much stronger than the majority of the cast because of how he trains. He works himself to the limit, but he lets his body rest and adjust. Vegeta for example trains relentlessly only resting when he pretty much drops. He doesent give his body as much rest as Goku. Gohan's excuse is that he often neglects his training or slacks off with it for large periods of time. Another argument is that Gohan and the boys have more potential because of their blood, seeing how Saiyan power is largely tied into emotion, they can tap into their human emotions to become stronger, hence concepts such as rage boosts.

[RandomGuy96]

Meh. I hate zenkais far more than the Super Saiyan bargain sale.

[KentalSSJ6]

They become nearly nonexistent after Namek anyway, not like they did anything major afterwards. Correct me if I'm wrong but dont the Daizenshuus state that after becoming a Super Saiyan, the Zenkai's either stop or become so small its not even noticeable?

[RandomGuy96]

They become nearly nonexistent after Namek anyway, not like they did anything major afterwards. Correct me if I'm wrong but dont the Daizenshuus state that after becoming a Super Saiyan, the Zenkai's either stop or become so small its not even noticeable?

Yep. But I hated them when they were around, partly because they were lazy, partly because they were cheap, but mostly because they're OP and inconsistent- unnecessarily so.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The ritual brings the fighters to their absolute limit but we know that limits in DBZ can be broken.

Limits can't be broken. They never were. But that doesn't stop them from getting stronger (Toriyama said that there is no limit to increasing your ki), it just slows down the gains.

[KentalSSJ6]

What I was essentially saying is that in DBZ, not matter how strong someone gets, they or someone else can get just as strong if not stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What I was essentially saying is that in DBZ, not matter how strong someone gets, they or someone else can get just as strong if not stronger.

Apparently not, since Kame-sennin was permanently left behind Chaozu, Chaozu was permanently left behind Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha, Tenshinhan & Yamcha were permanently left behind Kuririn, Kuririn was permanently left behind the base Saiyans, and Piccolo was left permanently behind the Super Saiyans. There are limits, apparently.

[TheGmGoken]

Piccolo was left permanently behind the Super Saiyans.

No he wasn't. Maybe the Grades or SSJ2(s) but not the regular SSJ form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No he wasn't. Maybe the Grades or SSJ2(s) but not the regular SSJ form.

The Super Saiyans were much stronger than Kaioshin, and Kaioshin was much stronger than Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

The Super Saiyans were much stronger than Kaioshin

Where's that stated?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Super Saiyans were much stronger than Kaioshin

Where's that stated?

SS Gohan was even with Dabra, and Vegeta said that Gohan should be able to beat him if he hadn't slacked off, and he also said that he & Goku were able to beat him as well (it wasn't revealed yet that they could go Super Saiyan 2). SS Gohan could also pull the Z-Sword while Kaioshin couldn't.