Super Saiyan as a child's plaything - Your thoughts

[TheGmGoken]

it wasn't revealed yet that they could go Super Saiyan 2)

Goku was revealed to be able to go SSJ2 long before Dabura fought Gohan

Vegeta: "So it seems Kakarot has reached SS2 as well"

[DBZGTKOSDH]

it wasn't revealed yet that they could go Super Saiyan 2)

Goku was revealed to be able to go SSJ2 long before Dabura fought Gohan

Vegeta: "So it seems Kakarot has reached SS2 as well"

What? When?

[TheGmGoken]

it wasn't revealed yet that they could go Super Saiyan 2)

Goku was revealed to be able to go SSJ2 long before Dabura fought Gohan

Vegeta: "So it seems Kakarot has reached SS2 as well"

What? When?

After Goku's fight with Yakon

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta said that Goku overcame the Super Saiyan wall. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't a term yet. But you are right, I never noticed that. But my point still stands, SS Gohan was able to beat Dabra, but couldn't do it quickly because his skills had turned shit.

[ABED]

Goku was shown to have a lot of hidden power, but it was at a time in the series where Toriyama hadn't thought of battle powers, and those seem to increase at a geometric rate as the series progresses.

Where'd the idea that Mystic Gohan is several times stronger than SS3? That seems way too cheap.

[TheGmGoken]

Where'd the idea that Mystic Gohan is several times stronger than SS3? That seems way too cheap.

Base Gotenks should be around SSJ3 Goku power after ROSAT. SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier so Gotenks SSJ3 should be around 400x stronger than Goku(Rounding). Gohan is stronger than Gotenks. Hence Gohan is over 400x stronger than Goku. Not cheap,. It's logic.
I know Goku is your favorite character and you admitted to being a fanboy of his but c'mon. You can't just deny ALL facts

Goku was shown to have a lot of hidden power, but it was at a time in the series where Toriyama hadn't thought of battle powers, and those seem to increase at a geometric rate as the series progresses.

Goku showed great fighting skills not hidden power. He never had a small burst when he just start kicking ass randomly. Even when he was pissed at King Piccolo and Tao.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where'd the idea that Mystic Gohan is several times stronger than SS3? That seems way too cheap.

Goku said that SS Gotenks would be stronger than him in SS3. Fusion is said to make the users dozens of times stronger in the guidebooks. Since Goten & Trunks are not even 2 times weaker than Goku, then base Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than base Goku. After RoSaT, Piccolo sensed that base Gotenks had gotten a huge power-up through his training (to the point that he had the impression for a second that base Gotenks was stronger than Boo), and the Daizenshuu confirm that he surpassed SS2 Vegeta. And SS3 Gotenks is 400 times stronger than base Gotenks, so SS3 Gotenks is 100 times stronger than SS3 Goku, and U. Gohan is implied to be less than 2 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

[KentalSSJ6]

So exactly how many times more powerful is Gohan compared to Goku?

[TheGmGoken]

So exactly how many times more powerful is Gohan compared to Goku?

I have him over 400x stronger and DBZGTKOSDH has him about 150x - 200x stronger

[KentalSSJ6]

And yest SSJG reduces that to nothing. That just makes me hate it that much more.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I just have him over 100 times stronger.

[KentalSSJ6]

Which still seems a rather extreme case of overkill doesent it? Ok Vegito is Goku X Vegeta correct? Super Vegito is X50 base Vegito. Now if what your saying is true, shouldent Gohan be dozens of time stronger than Super Vegito and by that material be able to take on Bills with minimal effort?

[TheGmGoken]

Which still seems a rather extreme case of overkill doesent it? Ok Vegito is Goku X Vegeta correct? Super Vegito is X50 base Vegito. Now if what your saying is true, shouldent Gohan be dozens of time stronger than Super Vegito and by that material be able to take on Bills with minimal effort?

It's a fusion. We don't know the exact result in power. Not to mention someone created a GREAT formula for it that pretty much makes Mystic Gohan weaker than Vegetto by a lot. So it still not overkill.

[KentalSSJ6]

Dont think I've seen the formula. I was just going off Vegito = Goku base PL X Vegeta base PL.

[TheGmGoken]

Dont think I've seen the formula. I was just going off Vegito = Goku base PL X Vegeta base PL.

This might seem (very) arbitrary, but... I think I have one for my theory.

The multiplier is A + B x whatever percentage of the stronger fusee the weaker fusee is. Let me demonstrate...

Let's say Kaioshin is 2,500,000,000 and Kibito is 70,000,000. 70,000,000 is 2.8% of 2,500,000,000. Therefore the equation would be (2,500,000,000 + 70,000,000) x 2.8, which would be 7,200,000,000 (actually 71,960,000,000 but rounded for simplicity's sake). A nice boost, but nothing that would let him be relevant against Buu.

Let's use an example of someone getting weaker. Say that the original Elder Kaioshin was 3,000,000,000. He fused with a witch that was, say, 300,000. That witch is 0.01% of him. So it'd be (3,000,000,000 + 300,000) x 0.01 = 30,030,000. He went from on the same level as the current East Kaioshin to weaker than base Goku, who knocked him out with a single blast.

Let's use the last example for the full boost; Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta can't stop Gohan-Buu, even with the dance, but they have the potara. Thanks to Babidi, both of these guys are basically equal. If Vegeta and Goku are both 100,000,000 in base, then Vegeta is 100% of Goku. Therefore, that's the multiplier. It goes (100,000,000 + 100,000,000) x 100, which would make base Vegetto 20,000,000,000. He does the Super Saiyan transformation on top of that to become Super Vegetto, with a power level of 1,000,000,000,000, enough to stomp Gohan-Buu.

Let me know if I made a mistake. I usually suck with this.

We also have the hypothetical potaras. Gokule would've been a complete weakling, I don't think I need to say that. But what about Gokan?

It depends on if Goku can be transformed while fusing, and whether or not Gohan's ultimate state is something he powers up into, and not just his base. I'll assume he still has his base form somewhere down there due to BOG and Movie 13. Dbzfan, you have this saga's base Gohan at 75,000,000... 75% of Goku, obviously. So we'll use with that with base Goku's 100,000,000. (100,000,000 + 75,000,000) x 75 = 17,500,000,000. Weaker than Vegetto, yet still strong enough to beat Gohan-Buu, probably just with normal Super Saiyan. Then again, this still isn't enough to beat Buutenks in base, like Old Kaioshin said it would, but perhaps he was thinking that Gokan could use the ultimate state as well...?

Like I said, I interpret the whole meaning of the statement as "they rival each other in power", because I think it's dumb for a pair of magical earrings to just decide "hey, we're going to boost these guys more cause they hate each other".

For reference, with the above numbers, I was assuming that Gohan-Buu was a 450,000,000,000 and hypothetical Gogeta went by (A + B) x 5, and so would be only 400,000,000,000 in SS3, unable to beat Gohan-Buu.

I've recently adopted it for my PL list. It seems to work out, keeping potara fusions from being too overpowered while also giving an explanation for why Vegetto was overpowered. As I've said a million times, I also HATE the 'rival boost', and interpret that line as 'they're close in power', which really seemed to be the main difference in the two potara fusions we saw.

That formula seems interesting, but I generally try to keep direct multiplication and division of PLs out, because as you said, it's messy. I like it nice and simple.

From RandomGuy96

[Cursed Lemon]

Have we figured a multiplier difference between dance vs. potarra?

[Dr. Machismo]

No he wasn't. Maybe the Grades or SSJ2(s) but not the regular SSJ form.

The Super Saiyans were much stronger than Kaioshin, and Kaioshin was much stronger than Piccolo.

I don't think there's enough evidence to say that Supreme Kai is stronger than Piccolo. The two never actually fought. Piccolo didn't want to fight Supreme Kai, but that could have just been because he was too intimidated by what exactly Supreme Kai was.

[KentalSSJ6]

Have we figured a multiplier difference between dance vs. potarra?

All we know for sure so far is that Potara is the stronger fusion method. I'm sure someone is working on the math though.

[TheGmGoken]

Have we figured a multiplier difference between dance vs. potarra?

Okay use the theory of Potara for this one. Okay we know how Potara "works" and here how I'll compare dance to it. Since A got to lower their power to B. Just go B to the second power times that by 10 because of the huge boast fusion gives. As the original makers of fusion went from weak to impressing Goku.

[ABED]

You guys put way too much thought into the math. Apparently fusion is supposed to multiply the two powers together but it's WAY too much. Once we get into Super Saiyan and Freeza, the power levels skyrocket. It's absolutely absurd when you think about it logically. Vegeta apparently has the power to destroy the Earth when we first meet him, so wouldn't it logically follow that once we start getting to the buu arc, every blast they throw would make Vegeta's power look like nothing. It's also ridiculous that in the early part of the series that a few points difference in battle power means all the difference, but the gaps become unneccessarily huge later on in the show and yet the weaker opponent puts up some sort of opposition.