Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah, the website claimed Gohan had the strongest potential. Vegeta isn't surpassing him with a rage boost.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
mysticboy wrote:Teincha (fused for an unlimited time) runs a DB gaunlet. Where does he stop?
At worst: stops at second form Freeza after squeaking past first form Freeza.
At best: stops at final form Freeza. Even 20% Freeza would be enough to dominate, as long as he is cautious of the Kikoho.
Buu Saga
Lowest estimate:
Tien - 95,000
Yamcha- 50,000
Tiencha- 600,000
Highest estimate:
Tien - 3,200,000
Yamcha- 1,500,000
Tiencha- 18,000,000
Maybe they might be too far apart to fuse, though.
If either of them learned the kaio-ken off screen (common fanon), then a x20 kaio-ken would be enough to let Tiencha beat Androids 17 and 18 with ease, but he'd still be unable to overcome 16 or Imperfect Cell. At best he can draw one of them by killing himself with a kaio-ken x20 Shin Kikoho.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Gohan's dormant power > any saiyan's hidden power. This is stated, like, a thousand times. I find the notion that Vegeta can surpass this level and then some RIDICULOUS. Because that's what Ultimate Gohan is. All of Gohan's potential and dormant power drawn out waaaaaaaay beyond its limits.
Vegeta caught Beers off guard, who proceeded to tank every blow then flick him away after showing that he was completely unaffected, even by a Galick Gun so insanely powerful (by Vegeta's standards) that simply firing it caused him to revert to base. Not really a big feat. It's very likely that he wasn't even suppressed to the same level that could put down Ultimate Gohan in two hits; hell, he was suppressed so much his slap didn't kill Bulma, and didn't have time to power up or anything when Vegeta attacked. Plus, Gohan wasn't even ultimate in that movie, just like how Gotenks never went SS3. He was a SS2 with a poor last minute design change, and is still treated as one for plot purposes.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I still don't believe Vegeta to have surpassed Goku either. This can't have taken place any more than two years after the Buu saga? So, Vegeta goes from admitting Goku is the best and Vegeta doesn't stand a chance, to becoming stronger at SSJ2 state two years later? I find that hard to believe. I also do not believe Vegeta has a "angry power" as such like many are stating. Since when did Vegeta or Goku EVER pull out hidden power??
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
It helps to think that Gohan's "ultimate" power is simply beyond some current, malleable limit of his rather than some set maximum lifetime limit. Then it's not so unbelievable for him to be surpassed, or to improve himself.
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:I still don't believe Vegeta to have surpassed Goku either. This can't have taken place any more than two years after the Buu saga? So, Vegeta goes from admitting Goku is the best and Vegeta doesn't stand a chance, to becoming stronger at SSJ2 state two years later? I find that hard to believe. I also do not believe Vegeta has a "angry power" as such like many are stating. Since when did Vegeta or Goku EVER pull out hidden power??
Never. But an interesting tidbit is that he also apparently did better against Beers than the others before Bulma got hit, even tanking a punch at one point.
/Vegeta-wanking scriptwriter logic
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Kaboom wrote:It helps to think that Gohan's "ultimate" power is simply beyond some current, malleable limit of his rather than some set maximum lifetime limit. Then it's not so unbelievable for him to be surpassed, or to improve himself.
Yep I agree with this. There's no such thing as limits in DB.
Like it or not Vegeta surpassed everyone in that few seconds.
No proof of that. All we know is that he surpassed Goku... and even that may have been a joke.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Gohan's dormant power > any saiyan's hidden power. This is stated, like, a thousand times. I find the notion that Vegeta can surpass this level and then some RIDICULOUS. Because that's what Ultimate Gohan is. All of Gohan's potential and dormant power drawn out waaaaaaaay beyond its limits.
Vegeta caught Beers off guard, who proceeded to tank every blow then flick him away after showing that he was completely unaffected, even by a Galick Gun so insanely powerful (by Vegeta's standards) that simply firing it caused him to revert to base. Not really a big feat. It's very likely that he wasn't even suppressed to the same level that could put down Ultimate Gohan in two hits; hell, he was suppressed so much his slap didn't kill Bulma, and didn't have time to power up or anything when Vegeta attacked. Plus, Gohan wasn't even ultimate in that movie, just like how Gotenks never went SS3. He was a SS2 with a poor last minute design change, and is still treated as one for plot purposes.
I kinda think Ultimate Gohan was a last minute shoehorn. The animation is basically just a recolor of the SSJ Gohan they showed before and Gotenks doesn't even bother to go SSJ3? Kinda like how in "the warrior's of the dead" Goku was supposed to be a SSJ but got recolored into a black SSJ look.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Birusu was not caught by surprise, he even punched Vegeta first and he was not affected at all. He then proceed to sent Birusu flying away with a punch of his own. Birusu could not one shot this Vegeta.
Birusu was not caught by surprise, he even punched Vegeta first and he was not affected at all. He then proceed to sent Birusu flying away with a punch of his own. Birusu could not one shot this Vegeta.
SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta >> Gohan.
Birus took absolutely no damage from SSJ2 Vegeta and said he was disappointed. He could easily one shot him if he tried. He could one shot any of the heroes besides SSJG Goku
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zombie wrote:Well of course, he most likely powered up to take on Vegeta's blast.
Vegeta also didn't take damage until he returned to base.
No such thing suggests Birus powered up at any point against Vegeta. Read the summary if you must as there is no indication he powered up. You can make a case for Enraged Vegeta being>Ultimate Gohan, but Birus could easily one shot Vegeta at any point.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zombie wrote:A fighter can power up with out emitting aura. I mean, cmon now.
Which is not even remotely hinted at. Birus is looking for Super Saiyan God, he wondered if when Vegeta got angry it would be him. He then says he is disappointed that it isn't Vegeta and he pokes him out.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
