The problem with identifying SSJ2

[Son_Gohan]

I then counter that by saying Gohan was rusty and needed time to transform into a SSJ2 at the Budokai.

To play Devil's Advocate here, wasn't that just filler?

No, the audience starts complaining because he's taking too long, even in the manga.

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

[Kamiccolo9]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Is it? I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've read that part.

[TheMightyOzaru]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Not really. I read that part again and he was powering up while mulling over Kibito's request. Furthermore, how can you show a long transformation scene in the manga? We see Gohan struggling to power up in several pictures of the page. A manga can't exactly capture a minute long transformation, the struggle tells me it took a while. The anime just backs this up.

[TheGmGoken]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Not really. I read that part again and he was powering up while mulling over Kibito's request. Furthermore, how can you show a long transformation scene in the manga? We see Gohan struggling to power up in several pictures of the page. A manga can't exactly capture a minute long transformation, the struggle tells me it took a while. The anime just backs this up.

I guess he wanted the next 3 pages filled with power up panels

[Son_Gohan]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Not really. I read that part again and he was powering up while mulling over Kibito's request. Furthermore, how can you show a long transformation scene in the manga? We see Gohan struggling to power up in several pictures of the page. A manga can't exactly capture a minute long transformation, the struggle tells me it took a while. The anime just backs this up.

Again, Kibito's request was simply for Super Saiyan, which Gohan has shown to not need more than a second to carry out. The fact that his hair is shown to remain black proves that the delay was out of his hesitance to reveal his identity as the Golden Warrior, since he merely could've fulfilled Kibito's request and then proceed to SSj2 if he really wanted to. Freeza's was probably the longest if I remember correctly.

[Fionordequester]

You guys sure you want to do this so soon after the last one? I'm just going to start bringing up my old (and, imo, unanswered) objections to Gohan being an SSJ1, and then I'm thinking this is going to end in the same stalemate as the last one.

[TheMightyOzaru]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Not really. I read that part again and he was powering up while mulling over Kibito's request. Furthermore, how can you show a long transformation scene in the manga? We see Gohan struggling to power up in several pictures of the page. A manga can't exactly capture a minute long transformation, the struggle tells me it took a while. The anime just backs this up.

Again, Kibito's request was simply for Super Saiyan, which Gohan has shown to not need more than a second to carry out. The fact that his hair is shown to remain black proves that the delay was out of his hesitance to reveal his identity as the Golden Warrior, since he merely could've fulfilled Kibito's request and then proceed to SSj2 if he really wanted to. Freeza's was probably the longest if I remember correctly.

Fine, that still doesn't address the fact that a transformation scene can't really take long in the manga. You know how DBZ is, it heavily abuses cinematic time. Freeza's was as long as it was because there was other stuff going on to fill that time.

You guys sure you want to do this so soon after the last one? I'm just going to start bringing up my old (and, imo, unanswered) objections to Gohan being an SSJ1, and then I'm thinking this is going to end in the same stalemate as the last one.

Please don't, we don't need a debate. I'm gonna stop here.

[MDSTSSJ]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

Kibito doesn't know the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 and is pretty clear ( in the manga/anime )that Gohan transform in SSJ2 in front of him.

Vs Dabura? Gohan shows aspects of a SSJ2 transformation.

[Saitou Hajime]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

It still took a while even after Gohan decided on SSJ2. Transformations after the initial one usually only takes a panel or two, but Gohan's took at least 2 pages.

[Son_Gohan]

In the manga the audience gets restless while Gohan is thinking over whether he should transform or not. Once he finally makes up his mind it occurs in almost an instant. It's made evident by the fact that Kibito's request was only for Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2.

It still took a while even after Gohan decided on SSJ2. Transformations after the initial one usually only takes a panel or two, but Gohan's took at least 2 pages.

It did only take a panel or two. Once their hair is fully developed they have transformed. The quantity of different shots involved merely gives emphasis to the event.

[Dr. Machismo]

[
it being debatable is like debting if vegeta was a ssj2 or ssj3 when he fought kid buu

when he powered up to fight majin buu he said he wasn't as angry as he was when he fought cell so that could be the reason why he could't go ssj2 at that time plus his energy was stolen before those fights and

No. The reason it's debatable is because there would be no reason for Gohan not have used Super Saiyan 2 against Buu or Dabura. Vegeta was clearly a Super Saiyan 2 against Kid Buu and he didn't know how to go Super Saiyan 3.

[sintzu]

[
it being debatable is like debting if vegeta was a ssj2 or ssj3 when he fought kid buu

when he powered up to fight majin buu he said he wasn't as angry as he was when he fought cell so that could be the reason why he could't go ssj2 at that time plus his energy was stolen before those fights and

there would be no reason for Gohan not have used Super Saiyan 2 against Buu or Dabura.

Vegeta was clearly a Super Saiyan 2 against Kid Buu

there are 2 :

1- he said he wasn't as angry as he was agenst cell
2- his power wasn't fully restored by kibito after it was all stolen

gohan was also clearly a ssj with obvious reasons against buu and dabura yet for some reason it's still being debated if he was a ssj or ssj2

[Dr. Machismo]

there are 2 :

1- he said he wasn't as angry as he was agenst cell
2- his power wasn't fully restored by kibito after it was all stolen

gohan was also clearly a ssj with obvious reasons against buu and dabura yet for some reason it's still being debated if he was a ssj or ssj2

Why are you bringing up Gohan in response to what I said about Vegeta.

Gohan wasn't as angry as he was against Cell, but he wasn't as angry as he was against Kibito ... and he clearly was an SS2 then. It was never said that Kibito didn't restore all his power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even if (which isn't implied anywhere) Kibito didn't restore all of his power, he later went on to eat a senzu and still displayed Super Saiyan. So it's not because he's lacking in Chi.

[MalikArcanum]

For the Dabura fight, I think it could been an oversight on Toriyama's part. Though he was generally far more consistent with his portrayal of SSJ2 than the show was, and of transformations in general, he wasn't infallible.

[Dr. Machismo]

maybe gohan wasn't supposed to be an SS2 ever in the saga. and toriyama just made him SS2 at the tournament too make that scene epic

[MalikArcanum]

That would make a kind of sense. Considering he never really trained to control it after the Cell Games, it could be that he never learned to fully utilize SSJ2.

If you remember, when talking to Future Trunks for the first time, Goku said he initially had trouble becoming a SSJ1 at will, but eventually it became easier for him through practice. Now imagine if he'd let that ability atrophy for 7 years, never having mastered it.


Of course this is just speculation, though.

[MalikArcanum]

Also, looking at the manga scans, it really is inconsistent. It seems like either Toriyama forgot to draw Gohan's lightning post Tournament, or he just completely forgot the differences between SSJ1 & 2 Gohan.

The latter seems more likely, because even at the Tournament, when he was powering up to save Videl from Spopovitch, his hair was much sharper then it had been when he previously transformed, and his second, smaller bang in the middle of his forehead isn't present.

[sintzu]

there are 2 :

1- he said he wasn't as angry as he was agenst cell
2- his power wasn't fully restored by kibito after it was all stolen

gohan was also clearly a ssj with obvious reasons against buu and dabura yet for some reason it's still being debated if he was a ssj or ssj2

Why are you bringing up Gohan in response to what I said about Vegeta.

It was never said that Kibito didn't restore all his power.

because it's the same thing : gohan in the manga had a ssj aura and no elctricity around his body wich makes him a ssj yet for some reason you and a lot of fans debate if he was a ssj2 or not

it not being said dosen't mean it's not posible

[sintzu]

he just completely forgot the differences between SSJ1 & 2 Gohan.

at the Tournament, when he was powering up to save Videl from Spopovitch, his hair was much sharper then it had been when he previously transformed, and his second, smaller bang in the middle of his forehead isn't present.

i don't think so cause at the same time vegeta and goku were fighting and they had the ssj2 look

i think that's because he changed his art style a bit cause vegeta and goku in ssj also have sharper hair in the buu saga then they did in the cell-frieza sagas