In defense of the Faulconer score

[90sDBZ]

I've been thinking for a while how a lot of people bash the Faulconer score based on it being completely different in feel to the Japanese Kikuchi score used in DB. They say how it doesn't fit the kind of show Dragonball is and that Dragonball is more of a traditional mystical adventure story kind of series. While I agree this is true for the original Dragonball I believe Z to be a different story.

Firstly I'd like to use the old Batman cartoon series as an example. I've actually seen Batman TAS from the 90s used as an example on several occasions of how an orchestral score can make a western show work really well and become really popular. While this is completely true I'd now like to turn your attention to its sequel Batman Beyond. Batman Beyond despite being a fully-fledged sequel and in the same canon as Batman TAS opted for a much more heavy metal score as opposed to orchestra and was also a really great show and highly successful in its own right.

Just like with DB and DBZ, Batman Beyond had evolved and changed greatly in style from TAS. It was like a different Gotham City. And the world of Dragonball had also changed greatly such as everybody on earth being arrogant and obnoxious and not even knowing about the previous Tournaments or Goku and co, not to mention greater technology. Also, Batman Beyond had a lot more action in it and had a heavy metal score to reflect that, just like DBZ and Faulconer. To me Batman TAS and Batman Beyond are a prime example of how a series can take on a completely different score and still work just as effectively. Basically the scores of Batman TAS and Beyond are as different as night and day but are both equally as appropriate.

I feel like Faulconer's score in Z does a great job at making Z feel more futuristic and complementing the action in contrast to DB which appropriately feels more like a story driven martial arts adventure, similar to old Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee movies. But the stuff that happens in Z is mostly nothing like a Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan martial arts movie. Z is much more Sci-Fi with all the time travel, cyborgs, aliens and what-not. In short both scores do a great job in their respective series.

This is my opinion anyway so feel free to disagree and post your opinions on the subject.

[VegettoEX]

Gonna move this over to the "Music" sub-forum.

I feel like I should say something beyond that, but I have no thoughts worth tossing into the mix, though, and especially nothing that I could write with any real class. I'm not interested in a sub-licensor's re-interpretation of the series, and therefore have no interest in what music they think belongs with it. The last time I significantly watched with it was probably spot-checking during "Season 4" on its original Toonami broadcast (so, what, the year 2000?). Disliked it heavily then, and still have a pavlovian reaction of disgust every time I hear any of that music when I accidentally click things online.

It's not Dragon Ball to me, both on a plain ol' philosophical level ("don't replace the music!") and an artistic level ("this genuinely does not work with the material it's supposed to be supporting"). I have very rude things that I could say (and absolutely have said in the past) about the thought process behind its change, the lies leading up to it existing in the first place, and its affect on the English-speaking fanbase. They're, again, probably not worth detailing in 2013. Thinking about it still makes me a little sad, and that's the exact opposite of how I want to be with the franchise!

It's moved more toward the "indifference" side of my mindspace, but not entirely. I still harbor a very weird resentment toward it and I always will. It's not like it consumes my every waking minute and haunts my every sleeping minute, and it's not like I ever think about it unless it jumps out at me through accidental online clicks like I mentioned...

But yeah. I'd rather it never happened, I don't like it, and I find significant faults with every argument I've seen defending it.

[eledoremassis02]

Interesting comparison. I think one thing for Batman Beyond was it was suppose to be a fresh youth take on Batman so the Heavy metal accompanied that, like "this isnt Bruces Batman anymore". For Z I think it was suppose speed the pace up a bit more (especially since they weren't splicing episodes anymore). But the transition for Shuki Levy to Faulconer was pretty shocking lol.

The Faulconer score really doesn't bother me. In some cases I like it more than the Japanese (ex. Goku going super saiyan for the first time). The only problem I really have with it is that every time a character shows up their theme plays...I'm looking at you King Kai and Vegeta lol.

I think we've reached the point now where it really doesn't matter because we can watch Z with English or Japanese music for the English track. Is it a re-imagining of the show? Yes, but it's what we did. We changed scores *and edited video*. Japan would make their own versions where ninja turtles turn into robots. Just how things went.

But all in all, I see no problem with people who prefer the music and I wish it was included in the Dragon Boxes (although it would have compressed the audio more for the other tracks).

EDIT: I also stopped around Season 4. lol

[Fionordequester]

So VegettoEX has never really listened to the music since Season 4...interesting (I don't believe clicking on some Youtube links count, when you're talking about a TV show, ESPECIALLY one scored to picture, you have to see what it's scored to in order to really get it I think).

Anyways, yeah, 90'sDBZ, that has ALWAYS been my opinion, yet people are always telling me that DBZ isn't THAT different (which I of course, heartily disagree with).

[TheBlackPaladin]

Just so you know where I'm coming from...
-I prefer Kikuchi's music.
-I've never much cared for Faulconer's music stylistically.
-I've never cared at all for the business decision to change the music.
-I don't think any music should be changed for a dub, except if it's one of the original Japanese songs getting dubbed into English.

Now that that's out of the way....

Well, 90sDBZ, your opinion was well thought-out. However, there's a key difference between DB/DBZ and the "Batman"/"Batman Beyond" example that you pointed out. Namely, that the change in musical styles from "Batman" to "Batman Beyond" was a conscious decision on the part of the creators.

The change in musical style in DBZ was one made by a distribution company in North America. Therefore, as perhaps you might have gathered, many people are turned off to the Faulconer score purely from a subtle, implied arrogance that comes from it. Whenever the musical score is changed (by somebody other than the creators), it's sort of like the person/people/group who changed the music are unofficially saying, "I know we didn't make this show, but trust us, we know how to make it even better!" The implied arrogance is magnified by the fact that pretty much every single other country kept the original BGM as-is for their respective dubs, meaning that we have another statement of implied arrogance along the lines of, "All those other people who used the music from the people who made the show don't know what they're talkin' about!"

It'd be interesting to know if fans would think differently of the Faulconer score if it was the original score. A lot of the hate that the Faulconer score gets stems from, again, the implied arrogance in creating it to begin with. If the Faulconer score was, in fact, the original music, I'm curious to know if all the people who hate it would think differently of it. I can't speak for everybody else...

...But I can speak for myself. Personally, I never really cared for the Faulconer score, even before I knew it wasn't the original music. It was one of those things that, as a kid, I just thought the music was what it was, and thought, "Well, the music's nothing special, but eh, whatever, the show's still good." I've always preferred orchestral scores over electronic/synthesized scores because there's a timeless, ancient quality about orchestras absent in virtually every other form of music because orchestras have been around for so dang long. Which is not to say that I don't like other forms of music, but given the age of orchestral music, it has this inherent ability to summon sentiments that humanity has been familiar with since the dawn of the human race. I don't get that vibe from synthesized/electric stuff...it feels too new, too recent, and therefore the stakes don't feel as high to me.

[Fionordequester]

Is it arrogance, though, when many other dubs are also doing that, AND you actually manage to convince the parent company that you're right? No, as far as I can tell, it was both a decision to make money, and a decision based on what was thought to be conventional wisdom at that time.

Putting that aside though, I still think it was the wrong decision for FUNI to handle the show (if they were so small and inexperienced, they shouldn't have ever took on DBZ to begin with), but hating the Faulconer score for that reason, to me, is like hating a child just because he was born out of a scandalous affair. Just because his parents screwed up doesn't mean that he/she should be judged for it, right?

[VegettoEX]

A child is a sentient being with real hopes, dreams, and aspirations.

A replacement musical score is a work-for-hire piece of artistic work worthy of critical analysis, scathing or otherwise.

[Fionordequester]

A child is a sentient being with real hopes, dreams, and aspirations.

A replacement musical score is a work-for-hire piece of artistic work worthy of critical analysis, scathing or otherwise.

But the fact of the matter is, you're still blaming it for something that wasn't it's fault.

[VegettoEX]

But the fact of the matter is, you're still blaming it for something that wasn't it's fault.

That's part of the criticism, yes, and absolutely a part worth mentioning and taking into consideration. It does not exist in a vacuum, and every aspect of it should be taken into consideration, especially if you legitimately want to have this as a real conversation.

I personally don't really want to, but I think it's worth reenforcing that fact for others that do.

[Fionordequester]

But the fact of the matter is, you're still blaming it for something that wasn't it's fault.

That's part of the criticism, yes, and absolutely a part worth mentioning and taking into consideration. It does not exist in a vacuum, and every aspect of it should be taken into consideration, especially if you legitimately want to have this as a real conversation.

I personally don't really want to, but I think it's worth reenforcing that fact for others that do.

So should I just hate everything about the Yamamoto Dragon Ball Z Kai score just because most of it was ripped off from other composers? I mean, granted, I hated the way the show was scored anyways just because of how repetitive it all was (even if it wasn't as bad as the Kikuchi mix), but that still doesn't change the fact that I liked some of the ripped off versions (such as "A New Foe Rears His Head) better than the original...

And then of course, there were others I didn't like as much (unlike Scott Morgan, I don't think "Battlepoint Unlimited" sounded better than the original, even if the rhythm was indeed improved).

[90sDBZ]

Okay some good replies. I can certainly understand why the Faulconer score caries that stigma of being "We think we can make the show better". However I personally feel like this is a case of the end justifies the means. One thing I think is worth pointing out is the fact that Funi made the decision that DB should keep its original score. They felt that Kikuchi in DB was good enough and I agree with them. In fact I think Kikuchi was amazing in DB. In DB I can't think of a single Kikuchi track that I could call boring. In Z though I can think of several.

I know one could use the argument that Funi were past needing royalties when they dubbed DB but let's not forget they dubbed GT after that and changed the score for that. I personally have faith that Funi weren't just mindlessly making these decisions and actually believed Z would do better with a new score. For what its worth I think Kikuchi still has his moments in Z but overall just didn't measure up to his previous work.

The change in Batman's score may have been a change by the actual creators but I still think the same changes can work just as well in DBZ even if it wasn't by the original creators. Some of the insert scores that Toei have in Kai feature some metal in them such as "Only a chilling energy" and "Super Dragon Soul" and both are some of my highlights from Kai because of it. If anything it shows that Toei didn't have much of a problem with using some metal themselves.

[VegettoEX]

I'm fine with the Yamamoto analogy. I dislike its very existence for similar reasons. I give it a SLIGHT edge over the Faulconer Productions replacement score because Kai was not literally DBZ being passed off as DBZ; it was called something different and attempted to do something different (read: edit the story down to a manga-accurate representation). Furthermore, Yamamoto was someone intimately involved with the musical production of the franchise in Japan from the near-beginning with arrangements of movie/insert songs and the video games, even though he wasn't the TV/movie composer himself (that obviously being Kikuchi).

That being said, you're also allowed to like certain things -- or even aspects of things -- in spite of themselves. I like certain Yamamoto tracks despite disliking its purpose. Other folks like certain Faulconer Productions tracks despite disliking its purpose.

Again, this doesn't all exist in a vacuum.

[Fionordequester]

Actually, now that I think about it, 90'sDBZ actually reminds me of another good point. Toei DID totally change the style of the score with Dragon Ball Z...they just didn't do it until Dragon Ball Z Kai, a show that was arguably more Dragon Ball than even the original DBZ was (since it was, after all, closer to Akira's original vision).

EDIT: And yes, you're allowed to think as you wish. But I still think judging it on those merits is unfair to the score, and the musicians composing it (remember, Scott himself browses these forums!).

[cRookie_Monster]

Hmm, a better Batman analogy might comparing the 60s shows' music to music written in the 90s or beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpWVV8wuM1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hko6wHqlHQ
Do all the other Batman scores suck because that's not what the originators had in mind? Or is it ok because the entire show was redone?

The original DBZ score has a very 60s feel to me, though more in common with the horror movies than cartoon scores.

Anyway, I think Barry and Bruce's thought was that American culture wouldn't accept the long absences of music or the old fashioned style. To us older generation musicians the original Japanese DBZ score calls up very distinct images of cliche old movies, not the "original feel" a lot of younger fans applaud it for.

Studio Ghibli has added more music to some of their American releases, though it's the same style.

So having talked to Barry and Bruce, I think it was probably partly accounting for cultural differences...and maybe some arrogance as well. I definitely remember Bruce saying how awful the Japanese score was...and myself being surprised at how old it sounded. We (naively) underestimated the existing fans watching badly dubbed VHS subtitled versions with Japanese music. And truthfully I think a lot of the initial upset on the web was from the switch from the Shuki Levy score to the Faulconer.

Of course I'll include my disclaimers, because I don't think any DBZ score is without flaws ^^ . Clearly Funimation went completely overboard demanding wall to wall music...and the Faulconer production value definitely could have been better in a lot of ways. In particular the acoustic synth instruments were subpar, even 14 years ago. Given the quantity of music required and the budget, live instruments were totally out of the question, not that we weren't capable. Bruce, Julius, and I had experience writing for and recording live orchestra. Maybe Mike as well since he does have a composition degree, I never heard him talk about it though. He would definitely have at least written for small ensembles. Oh disclaimers...hehe. yeah..Mickey Mousing the score was another problem, corny instrumentations sometimes, overly heavy at other times, etc, etc.

So for me, there's good and bad in all of it. If I had time..and didn't have to worry about copyright issues, I'd score the whole series again from start to finish hehe. That's my ideal score, the unwritten one.

[VegettoEX]

and the musicians composing it (remember, Scott himself browses these forums!).

My criticism of the replacement score is not a personal attack on its composers. I know this, most reasonable people reading this understand it, and in particular, Scott knows this.

If someone wants to play the victim over it -- particularly someone who is just a fan of the production and didn't even create it -- they're reading into it, and I can only do so much in my own personal writing to stay that.

[90sDBZ]

If I had time..and didn't have to worry about copyright issues, I'd score the whole series again from start to finish hehe. That's my ideal score, the unwritten one.

Now that's something I'd like to hear

[cRookie_Monster]

and the musicians composing it (remember, Scott himself browses these forums!).

My criticism of the replacement score is not a personal attack on its composers. I know this, most reasonable people reading this understand it, and in particular, Scott knows this.

If someone wants to play the victim over it -- particularly someone who is just a fan of the production and didn't even create it -- they're reading into it, and I can only do so much in my own personal writing to stay that.

I can't feel slighted by VegettoEX. Probably most people don't know, but he actually approached me several years ago to write the theme for a radio show of his (which they used)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=7175406

[eledoremassis02]

Hmm, a better Batman analogy might comparing the 60s shows' music to music written in the 90s or beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpWVV8wuM1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hko6wHqlHQ
Do all the other Batman scores suck because that's not what the originators had in mind? Or is it ok because the entire show was redone?

The original DBZ score has a very 60s feel to me, though more in common with the horror movies than cartoon scores.

Anyway, I think Barry and Bruce's thought was that American culture wouldn't accept the long absences of music or the old fashioned style. To us older generation musicians the original Japanese DBZ score calls up very distinct images of cliche old movies, not the "original feel" a lot of younger fans applaud it for.

Studio Ghibli has added more music to some of their American releases, though it's the same style.

So having talked to Barry and Bruce, I think it was probably partly accounting for cultural differences...and maybe some arrogance as well. I definitely remember Bruce saying how awful the Japanese score was...and myself being surprised at how old it sounded. We (naively) underestimated the existing fans watching badly dubbed VHS subtitled versions with Japanese music. And truthfully I think a lot of the initial upset on the web was from the switch from the Shuki Levy score to the Faulconer.

Of course I'll include my disclaimers, because I don't think any DBZ score is without flaws ^^ . Clearly Funimation went completely overboard demanding wall to wall music...and the Faulconer production value definitely could have been better in a lot of ways. In particular the acoustic synth instruments were subpar, even 14 years ago. Given the quantity of music required and the budget, live instruments were totally out of the question, not that we weren't capable. Bruce, Julius, and I had experience writing for and recording live orchestra. Maybe Mike as well since he does have a composition degree, I never heard him talk about it though. He would definitely have at least written for small ensembles. Oh disclaimers...hehe. yeah..Mickey Mousing the score was another problem, corny instrumentations sometimes, overly heavy at other times, etc, etc.

So for me, there's good and bad in all of it. If I had time..and didn't have to worry about copyright issues, I'd score the whole series again from start to finish hehe. That's my ideal score, the unwritten one.

I was totally about to post something similar lol

The Falconer score is the sign of it's time. FUNimations goal, as well as a lot of other companies, was to make the show more American, and maybe even "update" the score. They were successful because so many people are still familiar with Falconers music. I don't have a problem with it because Toei allowed it to happen so they felt it was ok too (most likely for monetary reasons). I think it fits well with the more "macho" tone FUNi took for the show.

As far as wall to wall music..I can't stand that either. But again, I think it was to Americanize it. We often have almost wall to wall music in our films and kids show. It was to help keep kids attention. Heck, I can't watch English with the Japanese score because it's so quiet lol

[cRookie_Monster]

I think that Batman episode from the 60's is wall to wall music(the one I linked above)
It's what Barry grew up with probably.

[Captain-Sora]

i'm not much of a fan of the dub score either. However, there are some props I can give it seeing as it isn't entirely flawed.

For all its problems, I do admire the attempt to give it a lot of thematic depth to compliment the narrative. Dozens of motifs for situations, characters, and so forth were established and developed throughout the score over the course of the series with many variations. While the less than favourable musical style they were going for does hurt it for me a lot, the score certainly isn't a substanceless piece of work. It actually has a tapestry of developing themes and it isn't just comprised of mindless ambient noise, which is more than I can say for a good deal of actual major film scores today(especially those done by a certain overrated composer getting far more attention than he deserves *coughHansZimmercough*).

Had they not gone with that certain instrumentation and style, there could have been a somewhat promising and listenable soundtrack to come out of it given the amount of potential and depth there actually was hidden beneath all what we got.