Vegeta > Gotenks(Pre)

[TheMightyOzaru]

The Daizenshuu make a statement about Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others AFTER training in the ROSAT. This would imply Ssj Gotenks is weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta. Statements within the story make this sound unlikely, do you think it's possible for this to be the case? I know a lot of people who do think this works think Gotenks' power is often a gag, which works, but do you guys have any other explanations.

[KentalSSJ6]

I often hear that people have SSJ3 Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku. Depending on the gap between Goku and Vegeta I could see it being possible. Highly unlikely, but possible.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm... Ssj3 Gotenks IS stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

[Kaboom]

Mentioning Vegeta specifically but not Goku seems to be an example of the Daizenshuu dancing around the notion of who among Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan is strongest, since the books apply to both the anime and manga versions of the story.

However, I don't see why it couldn't be the case anyway. Goku made a prediction about Gotenks' power, but there was no 100% guarantee he'd be correct. Plus, while Super Saiyan Gotenks' power was complimented a few times, he was never was actually shown or specifically noted to be stronger than anybody. No, "he's even stronger than Vegeta/Goku" or "with power like that he can definitely take out Majin Boo" or anything of the sort. Those sorts of statements are all over the place both before and after this point in the Majin Boo arc, so it's sort of interesting that nothing definite was said about Gotenks here.

So it's very possible he was still kind of a "work in progress" of sorts and only soundly surpassed the Super Saiyan 2s and SSJ3 Goku once he unlocked his own SSJ2 and SSJ3 in the Room of Spirit and Time.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I just find it interesting that no one said Goku was full of crap after seeing Gotenks' power. Goku set him up to be stronger than he himself was. Then again, Goku never specifies a form. It is obvious that Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj Goku.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, assuming Super Saiyan Gotenks is at least comparable to the Super Saiyan 2s, if not above them yet, then that'd still be an amazingly large power increase from Goten and Trunks individually. Less than expected, sure, but still nothing to sneeze at.

[hleV]

It's bullshit.

If Gotenks surpassed Goku, Goku would've been mentioned, not Vegeta. So according to the guidebook, post-ROSAT Gotenks is still inferior to Goku. Also, besides Vegeta, Gotenks supposedly surpassed at least two more people ("others"), so Gohan and Piccolo/Trunks.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah, I've been working on a minimalist list and I just thought Gotenks being weaker was odd. This makes sense of it I guess:
Ssj Gotenks(Pre): 7,500,000,000
Ssj2 Vegeta: 8,000,000,000
Ssj Gotenks(Post): 10,000,000,000

[Darkprince410]

As I've mentioned before, I personally believe that the entry involves the weakest form of Gotenks vs. the highest form of Vegeta. Given that the manga strongly suggests that Ssj Gotenks is far above Ssj2 Vegeta, I feel that, prior to the boys' training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Ssj Gotenks was still above Ssj2 Vegeta, but base form Gotenks was still below him.

However, once the boys do train in there, and then the results of that training being amplified by the fusion, Gotenks in his base form manages to surpass Ssj2 Vegeta. This would allow Ssj Gotenks to still be strong enough to have been a better challenge to Buu over Vegeta, make Piccolo's reaction to Gotenks after he fuses in the Room of Spirit and Time seem less foolish, and in turn still fit with what the Daizenshuu establishes for Gotenks vs. Vegeta while at the same time explaining why Goku isn't referred to.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I take it as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I take it as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta.

I don't know how you make the movies work then .

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I take it as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta.

I don't know how you make the movies work then .

Which movies?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I take it as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta.

I don't know how you make the movies work then .

Which movies?

12 and 13.

[Zephyr]

If Gotenks surpassed Goku, Goku would've been mentioned, not Vegeta. So according to the guidebook, post-ROSAT Gotenks is still inferior to Goku. Also, besides Vegeta, Gotenks supposedly surpassed at least two more people ("others"), so Gohan and Piccolo/Trunks.

I thought Goku and Vegeta were essentially equals in the Buu arc, barring SSj3.

So, if SSj Gotenks is stronger than SSj Vegeta, then he is also stronger than SSj Goku. That is to say, by mentioning Vegeta being surpassed, Goku is implied to have been surpassed.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

12 and 13.

What about them?

[Darkprince410]

Movie 13's the only one that throws a hitch in that, but Gotenks doesn't fight the same people that Goku and Vegeta do in movie 12, so I don't see how that'd be an issue.

[TheMightyOzaru]

12 and 13.

What about them?

If Gotenks and Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than Goku, how did Goku beat Hirudegarn? Furthermore, Janenba is even stronger than Hirudegarn, so how do you have Goku fighting well with him?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Gotenks and Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than Goku, how did Goku beat Hirudegarn? Furthermore, Janenba is even stronger than Hirudegarn, so how do you have Goku fighting well with him?

Goku used a super-amplified technique (Ryu-ken), since he did say that it's his strongest technique in GT. As for Janenba... I'm a bit skeptical recently about if he is stronger than Hildegarn or not (I'm aware of the Toei statement, but they didn't take into account Ryu-ken).

[TheMightyOzaru]

If Gotenks and Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than Goku, how did Goku beat Hirudegarn? Furthermore, Janenba is even stronger than Hirudegarn, so how do you have Goku fighting well with him?

Goku used a super-amplified technique (Ryu-ken), since he did say that it's his strongest technique in GT. As for Janenba... I'm a bit skeptical recently about if he is stronger than Hildegarn or not (I'm aware of the Toei statement, but they didn't take into account Ryu-ken).

Well they made the characters sooooo... Ryuken a hundreds of times amplification technique...? A little out there don't you think?

[KentalSSJ6]

The Dragon Fist is easily Goku's strongest attack that he can do alone. I dont know how much stronger Super Janemba is than Hirudegarn but then again when Goku went SSJ3, Hirudegarn barley gave Goku any trouble while Janemba did manage to beat SSJ3 Goku in one on one combat. I dont think its too much to say if Goku hit Janemba with the Dragon Fist, it would have killed him.