Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Mjb1985 wrote:I don't see how Gotenks could be that incredible if he wasn't at least on Goku's tier.
Because he's still the strongest person alive by far in just his SS form and can easily murder Buu with one hand tied behind back.
Also, Piccolo can't really know how strong Goku is when Goku is using so little effort. It's shown that even people who can't change their power levels can still simply bring more of it to the surface for a fight, making it easier to sense. See Freeza vs Vegeta. Nappa vs Piccolo and co. Ki sensing is pretty inaccurate otherwise; Piccolo couldn't even tell Vegeta was stronger than Nappa.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I could see Gotenks being as strong, somewhat weaker, or stronger than Goku's display of power. Really, all that matters is if Gotenks is powerful enough to handle the fat man. Gotenks, I believe, could handle him at any of the levels I mentioned.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Mjb1985 wrote:I don't see how Gotenks could be that incredible if he wasn't at least on Goku's tier.
Gotenks power would still be incredible because of the massive increase in power it is when compared to their unfused strength. If I go by RandomGuy96's scale then that would put SS Goten and Trunks at around a 2. Then after fusing they would be at a 19.5 an enormous increase which would also make them more than twice as strong as SS2 Majin Vegeta.
Kendamu wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If you put out untouched footage, someone like me is going to take it and turn it into a perfect release. Someone not like me is going to do the same and share it instead. You give pirates the opportunity to do better than companies and people will jump on that so fast.
This is an 80s/90s animated all-ages show that was popular amongst kids. It's not some potent super weapon that might fall into the wrong hands that we have to protect from evil.
SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu makes no sense. Fusions are stronger, but a simple SSJ stacking up to Fat Buu? I don't see how that is even possible.
When people talk about how strong he is, imo, what they really mean is "strong for his age." Until after RoSaT.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell
mAcChaos wrote:SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu makes no sense. Fusions are stronger, but a simple SSJ stacking up to Fat Buu? I don't see how that is even possible.
When people talk about how strong he is, imo, what they really mean is "strong for his age." Until after RoSaT.
Vegetto was a "simple Super Saiyan," and he was tossing around Buuhan like a rag doll.
mAcChaos wrote:SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu makes no sense. Fusions are stronger, but a simple SSJ stacking up to Fat Buu? I don't see how that is even possible.
When people talk about how strong he is, imo, what they really mean is "strong for his age." Until after RoSaT.
Goku was sure that SS Gotenks would be able to kill Boo though, and Piccolo, Kuririn, etc never doubted after they saw him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Mjb1985 wrote:that is basically what I'm talking about. The kids don't get the proper respect they deserve imo.
Pretty much. They're not that far from Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta (excluding SSJ2 and SSJ3 of course).
People just hate strong brats who were born extremely powerful.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
mAcChaos wrote:But, I point you to all the posts here about it being hard to accurately sense someone's power when they are not flexing it.
But not that inaccurately.
mAcChaos wrote:Vegito I'll give you, but Goku and Vegeta were always much stronger than Goten and Trunks. Goku already was SSJ3 tier on his own.
Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan were less than twice stronger than Goten & Trunks.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I'd put them as weaker than #18. All the comments about them, like Gohan being surprised, is more about their age. I mean, imagine if you ran into a baby running a marathon. Even if he was not as good as the others you would think it was unbelievable.
Gotenks at SS1 does not really do much to Buu either. It's only when he goes SSJ3 that he is a real threat to him.
It's not that I hate the characters (although Gotenks is annoying) it's just hard to see them being that strong.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell
mAcChaos wrote:I'd put them as weaker than #18. All the comments about them, like Gohan being surprised, is more about their age. I mean, imagine if you ran into a baby running a marathon. Even if he was not as good as the others you would think it was unbelievable.
Gotenks at SS1 does not really do much to Buu either. It's only when he goes SSJ3 that he is a real threat to him.
It's not that I hate the characters (although Gotenks is annoying) it's just hard to see them being that strong.
They are super tailes prodigies, it's not hard at all. They manage to give Gohan and Vegeta a hard time.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Hmm yes let's believe everything someone says in the Buu arc. All these scenes where the characters are like maybe Gotenks has a chance have ALWAYS been gags. Seriously go back and view the scenes. I have absolutely no problem with the notion that Ssj Gotenks could be stronger than Ssj3 Goku, but that's not necessarily the case.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
mAcChaos wrote:If you're just talking about their training, that wasn't a hard time at all. Gohan and Goten were just playing around, and Vegeta was not hurt at all.
Just because you can nip someone once out of a 100 hits and it does nothing doesn't mean you are on their level.
Were not talking about equals. They aren't too far behind. Gohan was terrified at how good Goten was and Vegeta struggled to avoid Trunks. Look at their faces. They show that Gohan and Vegeta have a hard time avoiding Goten and Trunks. If they were 18's level then they wouldn't give them a hard time at all. Vegeta was so pressured that he hit Trunks back.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
mAcChaos wrote:I'd put them as weaker than #18. All the comments about them, like Gohan being surprised, is more about their age. I mean, imagine if you ran into a baby running a marathon. Even if he was not as good as the others you would think it was unbelievable.
Gohan could barely block all of Goten's hits during their training, and he was also stated to be a great sparring partner for him. Vegeta couldn't dodge all of Trunks' hits (he got hit), and was forced to punch Trunks to stop him. #18 considered Trunks' ki blast dangerous for her, and was forced to reveal their identities to disqualify them from the tournament. Gohan was also afraid that the kids would surpass him if he kept skipping his training. And then, the kids got even stronger after RoSaT.
As for why they are so strong? They said that they did sparring together, and in the manga, we see them having the characteristics of a Super Saiyan Full Power. Which means that when they were training together, they accidentally mastered Super Saiyan, and mastering Super Saiyan + sparring give huge gains. Future Trunks didn't have sparring partners & didn't master Super Saiyan (until his 2nd trip inside RoSaT, possibly), so it took him longer to reach that level.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Yea the boys have some unreal power. They didn't earn it so people can't fathom it, but this is the direction the story went. I would think the boys are probably a good deal superior to Piccolo considering how rough of a time they gave Gohan and Vegeta.
Oh please, Gohan and Vegeta would thrash Goten and Trunks respectively. Gohan wasn't trying and Vegeta was caught off guard. The mere notion that Goten even comes close to his older brother is ridiculous.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
mAcChaos wrote:I'd put them as weaker than #18. All the comments about them, like Gohan being surprised, is more about their age. I mean, imagine if you ran into a baby running a marathon. Even if he was not as good as the others you would think it was unbelievable.
Gohan could barely block all of Goten's hits during their training, and he was also stated to be a great sparring partner for him. Vegeta couldn't dodge all of Trunks' hits (he got hit), and was forced to punch Trunks to stop him. #18 considered Trunks' ki blast dangerous for her, and was forced to reveal their identities to disqualify them from the tournament. Gohan was also afraid that the kids would surpass him if he kept skipping his training. And then, the kids got even stronger after RoSaT.
As for why they are so strong? They said that they did sparring together, and in the manga, we see them having the characteristics of a Super Saiyan Full Power. Which means that when they were training together, they accidentally mastered Super Saiyan, and mastering Super Saiyan + sparring give huge gains. Future Trunks didn't have sparring partners & didn't master Super Saiyan (until his 2nd trip inside RoSaT, possibly), so it took him longer to reach that level.
Exactly. People just hate the fact these boys are significant against SSJ level enemies. Apparently having SSJ2/3/Ultimate is not good enough advantage. Gohan could barely block everything and was scared shitless, and Vegeta had such a hard time blocking everything he punched Trunks back after Trunks got a shot in. Of course if the Adults fought back they would do much better, but they are within the 2x gap to give the two of them such a hard time blocking and dodging everything.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
