In defense of the Faulconer score

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I don't really see that. Could you elaborate?

Classical music like Kikuchi's tends to be timeless by nature whereas electronic music like Faulconer Production's ages heavily over time. It already sounded like early 80's electro rock music in the mid 90's and now it just sounds even more outdated.

You have a point there. The synth stuff would've sounded quite dated by the mid-90s, but at the same time I feel that the rock element of the score (especially the intros and outros) was fairly contemporary, rock music generally being more mainstream then than in the previous decade.

[cRookie_Monster]

Well, whilst I was aware of many of your points, I have been absolutely schooled on the whole.

I guess my point was more akin to something along the lines of - since synths are artificial, they grow outdated particularly quickly whereas the overall sound of traditional instruments are forever familiar. The music will, of course, change over the time - I would never lump Kikuchi and Penderecki together but there's familiarity in traditional instruments.

Does that make sense or is that just as ignorant sounding as my initial statement?

There is some point to that. The string section for instance has been pretty constant from the Baroque period to the present. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere and hasn't changed a great deal, though the instruments did develop some. On the other hand, the theremin that is used in the Japanese score points to a VERY specific time period and even genre. Strings are an extremely safe choice Did you know that cymbals and bass drums used to be associated with Turkish music? And this section of Beethoven's 9th: http://youtu.be/t3217H8JppI?t=51m26s was kind of shocking at the time? He was saying "Peace on earth, Good will to all men", including the Turks! So these sounds don't have to be forever "dated" or even "regioned". I think it's awesome how the old Nintendo synth sounds (like pulse and square waves) are making their way into pop music again, so much so that I'm starting to not even think of them like that anymore. It's just another sound we can use in music: http://youtu.be/iP6XpLQM2Cs?t=11s

To me it's a sign of how we are maturing musically, that we pay so much attention to timbre and develop it so much more rapidly, that we date our music not by the notes or rhythms chosen, but by the timbre of the instruments used. That's how fast we are developing timbre. It's hard to write anything using electronic instruments and not date yourself to a particular decade since the tech and sounds are moving so quickly. Maybe eventually we'll forget about associating certain sounds with particular decades and just accept it all, kinda like a lot of the old styles of harmonies just blend together into a giant mush for people who haven't studied them Hehe, one example that seems similar to the Turkish one...can you imagine hearing steel drums and not thinking of the Caribbean?

(PS: the Penderecki reference did impress me, orchestral but DEFINITELY NOT CLASSICAL!!! scariest. music. ever.)

[Attitudefan]

Damn Scott, that was a really enjoyable read. Thank you for your contributions!! Also, your song that you composed for the radio show you mentioned was one cool cat of music.

[cRookie_Monster]

Damn Scott, that was a really enjoyable read. Thank you for your contributions!! Also, your song that you composed for the radio show you mentioned was one cool cat of music.

Thanks!


Oh and someone mentioned the "frenetic melodies of the 80's video games" being what they liked. I liked them too! To a point anyway I actually brought this up as a discussion point with other composers on a professional VGM composers board one time, asking if they thought modern sound libraries were making us lazy. Interesting discussion. I used the Final Fantasy scores as an example. Very melodic, terrible general MIDI sounds, most popular game soundtracks of all time regardless of bad synths.

[Dr. Machismo]

I really liked Bruce Faulconer's theme. It had more personality than the other scores, IMO. And I grew up on it too.

[kei17]

Being technically dated doesn't interfere with being classic. What makes the KIkuchi score classic is its creative, memorable and catchy melodies and powerful arrangements that will never be too old, just like how Akira Ifukube's Godzilla music never gets unattractive though his style of composition didn't change at all since the 1940s. You can't justify replacing something classic because of it being old. It's as dumb as redrawing Trunks's John-Conner-esque hair because it looks nineties-style. Maybe it can be justified marketing-wise, but it's always strongly arrogant art-wise. The story of Faulconer insulting the original score outrages and dismays me.

I feel like Faulconer's score in Z does a great job at making Z feel more futuristic and complementing the action in contrast to DB which appropriately feels more like a story driven martial arts adventure, similar to old Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee movies. But the stuff that happens in Z is mostly nothing like a Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan martial arts movie. Z is much more Sci-Fi with all the time travel, cyborgs, aliens and what-not. In short both scores do a great job in their respective series.

That's the reason why Kikuchi's style changed from Z. It became more serious sounding and less oriental, which was enough to adapt to Z.

[MCDaveG]

Kikuchi's score was also one of the main reasons I was drawn to watch it on TV. It created the atmosphere I loved about the series and it sounded unique to me together with the Toriyama visual style.
After watching Silverhawks, Thundercats, TMNT and all these US shows, this was a gem with other anime series I discovered on TV.
The US re-score and dub acomplished one thing, that it made it generic US show in the ears and killed half of what I liked about it.

On the other hand, I respect cRookie Monster as a musician and theoretic and don't blame him for anything.
So as much as I don't like Faulconer's score, there is no anymosity here.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I think there would be less animosity towards the Faulconer score in the fandom if people saw the decision to change the music less as an artistic decision and more of a business decision. FUNimation didn't rescore the series because they thought that rock/synth would suit it more; they rescored it to appeal more to kids, who were their main audience. I think that DBZ probably still would've been a hit with the original score, but FUNi wanted to be absolutely sure it was going to be a hit and so they modernized the score and made it so that it was continuously playing so as to be as attention-grabbing as possible. If I grew up with the Japanese score and all of a sudden this American company comes along and changes the music so considerably, I would be inclined to see it as an arrogant imposition, but it really shouldn't be viewed that way.

[Ajay]

I think there would be less animosity towards the Faulconer score in the fandom if people saw the decision to change the music less as an artistic decision and more of a business decision. FUNimation didn't rescore the series because they thought that rock/synth would suit it more; they rescored it to appeal more to kids, who were their main audience. I think that DBZ probably still would've been a hit with the original score, but FUNi wanted to be absolutely sure it was going to be a hit and so they modernized the score and made it so that it was continuously playing so as to be as attention-grabbing as possible. If I grew up with the Japanese score and all of a sudden this American company comes along and changes the music so considerably, I would be inclined to see it as an arrogant imposition, but it really shouldn't be viewed that way.

It would have been a hit, you're right, it still is to some extent with Kai which, as we all know, has Kikuchi's score nowadays. The thing is, whilst yes, of course it's a business decision, they're still taking artistic liberties when it comes to the show. This isn't just evident in the music changes but also the script changes. They did not have faith in the quality of the original show as a whole and believed they could 'improve it' for western audiences. That's what I find so insulting about the whole ordeal - it's taking someone's work and going 'nope, that's no good, that won't work here' and changing it to what they believed was better and most 'suited' to Dragon Ball and that's simply not the case, on the contrary, we get something that is the antithesis, in many cases, of what the original show represented.

I think we all understand the reasoning behind it, we know it's primarily a business decision but it's still making a change to something that is, by definition, an art form. It boils down to two things - was the change morally right aka is it acceptable to alter other's art to suit your own tastes and does that change actually work with the show?

My answer is no.

[Insertclevername]

I thought FUNI changed the score to avoid paying royalties or something like that. That's what some people have said.

[theoriginalbilis]

I thought FUNI changed the score to avoid paying royalties or something like that. That's what some people have said.

I read that it was so they could charge royalties to whatever network aired it.

[Gonstead]

Remove Kikuchi - No royalties to pay.
Create new score and air on TV - Receive royalties

It was win/win for them.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

It would have been a hit, you're right, it still is to some extent with Kai which, as we all know, has Kikuchi's score nowadays. The thing is, whilst yes, of course it's a business decision, they're still taking artistic liberties when it comes to the show. This isn't just evident in the music changes but also the script changes. They did not have faith in the quality of the original show as a whole and believed they could 'improve it' for western audiences. That's what I find so insulting about the whole ordeal - it's taking someone's work and going 'nope, that's no good, that won't work here' and changing it to what they believed was better and most 'suited' to Dragon Ball and that's simply not the case, on the contrary, we get something that is the antithesis, in many cases, of what the original show represented.

I think we all understand the reasoning behind it, we know it's primarily a business decision but it's still making a change to something that is, by definition, an art form. It boils down to two things - was the change morally right aka is it acceptable to alter other's art to suit your own tastes and does that change actually work with the show?

My answer is no.

My point is that the intent was business-related. Yes, the result was an artistic change to the show, but it wasn't born out of a sense of artistic superiority. FUNimation weren't fueling their egos in making the changes they did; they sat down and said, "Okay, how can we make the show more appealing to kids?'' "Add more jokes? Okay." I agree with you in saying it was misguided, but that's where they were coming from. It's not morally wrong to change someone else's work. Dubbing an anime is changing it, making a cover song or a remix is changing it etc., but that doesn't mean it's blasphemy. Change isn't inherently bad, but, in my opinion, the changes FUNimation made were generally bad. But that's just my opinion.

Remove Kikuchi - No royalties to pay.
Create new score and air on TV - Receive royalties

It was win/win for them.

If that's so profitable, why didn't they do it for Kai? Not trying to be a smart-ass, but if FUNi were legally allowed to change Kai's score but didn't, then that means royalties weren't the only reason FUNi rescored Z. It probably was just an extra incentive.

[Gonstead]

They wouldn't have removed Kikuchi from Kai because they are completely past the point of replacement scores in their anime dubbing. They simply just don't do what they did with Z and GT anymore.

A better question would be: "Why don't all anime dubbers do this?" - Refer to the above.

[Attitudefan]

Hey, look at the positives. Scott Morgan became a successful musician out of this ordeal. FUNi gained more profit than they normally would have, thus, making them a dubbing giant in North America. I don't know man, if the outcome would be replicated today without this score.

More positives than negatives for sure.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

They wouldn't have removed Kikuchi from Kai because they are completely past the point of replacement scores in their anime dubbing. They simply just don't do what they did with Z and GT anymore.

A better question would be: "Why don't all anime dubbers do this?" - Refer to the above.

I was more referring to the broadcast version of Kai because it's analogous to Z (both aired on major children's TV networks). They wouldn't touch the DVD version, but the broadcast version is a different story because for the most part it's not fans who are watching it but kids who've never heard of DB before. So if they changed the score for the TV version of Kai but kept it for the DVD version, there would be no fan outcry or "artistic" issues. But they didn't change the score for Kai, so it can't be said the only reason Z's score was changed was royalties.

[Gonstead]

They wouldn't have removed Kikuchi from Kai because they are completely past the point of replacement scores in their anime dubbing. They simply just don't do what they did with Z and GT anymore.

A better question would be: "Why don't all anime dubbers do this?" - Refer to the above.

I was more referring to the broadcast version of Kai because it's analogous to Z (both aired on major children's TV networks). They wouldn't touch the DVD version, but the broadcast version is a different story because for the most part it's not fans who are watching it but kids who've never heard of DB before. So if they changed the score for the TV version of Kai but kept it for the DVD version, there would be no fan outcry or "artistic" issues. But they didn't change the score for Kai, so it can't be said the only reason Z's score was changed was royalties.

And again, I refer to my statement in my previous comment.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

And again, I refer to my statement in my previous comment.

Which is that changing the score would be crossing some artistic boundary. The boundary was crossed when they made Popo blue. Changing the skin colour of one of the characters can't be called faithful to the original, so if it's not faithful to the original in the first place, why not change the music?


My argument is that if royalties on music in a show that airs on a major TV network are so profitable, why didn't they change the score for Kai? Yes, nowadays, they don't replace the scores in anime they acquire, but when was the last time time had a show on a major cartoon station with ratings in the millions? DBZ. Most of the stuff they do is direct-to-DVD. If there was really that much money in it, they'd do it.

[VegettoEX]

You're (Piccolo Daimaoh) asking folks to view the musical change as a business decision rather than an artistic decision, which I'm happy to bring into the mix, and I was pushing for earlier. At the same time, there was Fionordequester specifically trying to tell me that it was unfair to the music, and almost it was borderline inappropriate to artistically judge it, by bringing the business decision into the mix.

I understand and recognize that you're two different people, but for the sake of "Faulconer Defenders As One Entity" argument, you can't have it both ways.

While I do pretty much think it is, I'm also of the mind that, no, I don't think you necessarily need to define Kikuchi's score as "timeless". It was absolutely a product of its time. But... uhh... well, so was the entire show as a whole. Taking one such intrinsically-important element as its underlying musical score, stripping it out, and replacing it wholesale suddenly changes the whole experience. It was an 80s/90s show with 80s/90s music and 80s/90s tropes and 80s/90s etc. etc. etc.

The same thing happened with FUNimation's original 1996-1998 dub. The same thing happened with Toei's Kai experiment. I have similar-but-varying thoughts on all three of these examples. And for me, the further out IN TIME you start changing things and the further out IN INFLUENCE you start changing things, the further away from the original experience it is. To me, Yamamoto!Kai is closer to the original, then Levy!DBZ, then Faulconer!DBZ. And, incidentally, that's how I would personally rank all three replacement scores in terms of personal enjoyment on a pure musical level, and personal enjoyment on a, "I am still remotely watching the DBZ that I know" level.

I think Scott's a freakin' great dude that's done me plenty of solids in the past and shows an incredible understanding of the original source material and has proven time and time again he's an amazing fan of the franchise. If we're going to start weighing "positives" and "negatives" of what the replacement score(s) has(ve) done for the franchise, though, and if I take that personal connection out of the mix, I think it's done more harm than good. And even if not "harm", at least "personal annoyances"...?

[Gonstead]

@Piccolo Daimaoh If you are bringing in the "faithful to the original" remark with regards to Blue Popo, an edit which only exists in the Vortexx version AND was done by the censors at 4Kids and not Funimation themselves, you might as well criticise any form of edits you see done to the anime, such as removal of blood, toning down the violence, shorter openings and endings, re-written dialogue to remove death references and cursing etc.