In defense of the Faulconer score

[Kakarot88]

if I take that personal connection out of the mix, I think it's done more harm than good. And even if not "harm", at least "personal annoyances"...?

I don't see how you being as involved with the franchise as you are can objectively say the Faulconer score did more harm than good. Dragon Ball Z on Toonami did very well fiscally and many still remember it fondly. If the end goal is to make money as a company and spread a product it did objectively well.

Toriyama's goal was to entertain you adolescent Japanese boys. Funimation's goal was to entertain you adolescent American boys, they achieved that goal. The fact that now some people prefer the Americanized and altered script over the original is a personal annoyance you hold. But to say it did harm on an objective level is not fair to say, you personally find it objectionable despite the fact it met the author's goal which was to provide entertainment. What Funimation did was not the same as Dragon Ball Evolution where they re-interpreted the entire work as a whole. Rather, all Funimation did was provide a more hard rock sci-fi feel to a program with those attributes that had music from a time carried over when it was based in mysticism.

Interestingly Battle of Gods music is entirely revamped from the 80s trumpets and violins of the anime. I know you don't think the Faulconer score was good but it was at least appealing enough to some American audiences, aside from this forum, I have yet to personally meet anyone who enjoys Kai's music which, correct me if I am wrong, is the just the old Z music put back in?

All I am saying is that I disagree with you that the Faulconer score was objectively harmful for the series. Rather, you find the change personally harmful because it changed how many fans were introduced to it and had their interpretation of it formulated. That to you may be objectively harmful, but that is because of your own subjective preferences. Further, I don't see how the music was "harmful" when it got many people to enjoy a program they may otherwise have turned off. I for one love the series but would not have given it the time of day had I watched it with the 80s music back in the 90s. Today I can appreciate the music, especially when I watch it in Japanese, but back then heck no. The 80s music to me will always fit Dragon Ball but was outdated for the sci-fi feel which Z brought. But that's my personal view.

[Gonstead]

@Kakarot88 I'm guessing you are not aware of the Kenji Yamamoto score for Kai?

[Kakarot88]

@Kakarot88 I'm guessing you are not aware of the Kenji Yamamoto score for Kai?

Yeah, he plagarized and it got taken out and replaced with the original right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Yama ... born_1958)

[Ajay]

@Kakarot88 I'm guessing you are not aware of the Kenji Yamamoto score for Kai?

Yeah, he plagarized and it got taken out and replaced with the original right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Yama ... born_1958)

I personally enjoy Yamamoto's replacement music as a whole, it feels more in line with the series' tone than any of the other replacements. With regards to the Kikuchi placement music in Kai, eh, I'm indifferent, I think it's poorly placed at times and certain themes are very overused but it's not bad whatsoever.

In terms of why I think the Faulconer music harms the franchise, it's because it portrays the show in a way that is fundamentally inaccurate. Making a version of the show popular isn't the same as making the actual show popular and so you get a large fanbase that is truly unaware of what the show's actual tone is like - because of the music and the script changes.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

You're (Piccolo Daimaoh) asking folks to view the musical change as a business decision rather than an artistic decision, which I'm happy to bring into the mix, and I was pushing for earlier. At the same time, there was Fionordequester specifically trying to tell me that it was unfair to the music, and almost it was borderline inappropriate to artistically judge it, by bringing the business decision into the mix.

I understand and recognize that you're two different people, but for the sake of "Faulconer Defenders As One Entity" argument, you can't have it both ways.

The motivation and the result are two different things. You can't let the motivation affect how you view the result. I was never arguing for the idea that you can't artistically judge the Faulconer score because it was the result of a business decision. I think you can, but it should be independent of the original score. I brought up the fact that the musical change was a business decision rather than an artistic one because some people were saying that FUNimation were being arrogant and imposing their personal creative vision on the show, which is false.

While I do pretty much think it is, I'm also of the mind that, no, I don't think you necessarily need to define Kikuchi's score as "timeless". It was absolutely a product of its time. But... uhh... well, so was the entire show as a whole. Taking one such intrinsically-important element as its underlying musical score, stripping it out, and replacing it wholesale suddenly changes the whole experience. It was an 80s/90s show with 80s/90s music and 80s/90s tropes and 80s/90s etc. etc. etc.

Yes, it changes the experience, but the mere fact that it does so shouldn't mean it's automatically bad. You could argue that it is, though. Your argument -- that the Faulconer score doesn't fit the themes of the show -- is a perfectly valid one and we could debate it, but arguing personal opinions is not why I started posting on this thread in the first place.


I love anime DVDs because they give you two ways of watching the show -- English and Japanese -- that I think are different enough to make it worth watching the show twice. You don't get that with movie DVDs; you'd be lucky if you got an audio commentary, but those are generally boring anyway. My point is that the original and the dub are two different experiences that should be enjoyed and judged separately. I don't privilege one over the other because it came first.

@Piccolo Daimaoh If you are bringing in the "faithful to the original" remark with regards to Blue Popo, an edit which only exists in the Vortexx version AND was done by the censors at 4Kids and not Funimation themselves, you might as well criticise any form of edits you see done to the anime, such as removal of blood, toning down the violence, shorter openings and endings, re-written dialogue to remove death references and cursing etc.

Sure, you could replace "Blue Popo" with any of those edits you mentioned. And it doesn't really matter who did the edits. You said that FUNimation don't rescore shows anymore so as not to be unfaithful to the original, but here we have all these edits that are way more unfaithful to the original.

[Kakarot88]

In terms of why I think the Faulconer music harms the franchise, it's because it portrays the show in a way that is fundamentally inaccurate. Making a version of the show popular isn't the same as making the actual show popular and so you get a large fanbase that is truly unaware of what the show's actual tone is like - because of the music and the script changes.

I disagree. In my opinion the original anime's interpretation of the series and its musical choices were not always what the manga portrayed let alone even had the same feel some for the worse some for the better. But each saga had virtually the same beats and typical choices per scene rather than growing as the series progressed. At the very least the Faulconer beats would vary per character, scene and saga. We have unique tonalities rather than a recycled playlist...oh no something bad is happening cue the trumpets and baby rattles (read as vibraslap)! As Veget progresses so too does his theme music, that is not the case in the Japanese verison. I appreciate the original, but think it is overrated and the Faulconer score trashed for not being the original.

I tend to be of the same opinion as Piccolo Daimaoh

I love anime DVDs because they give you two ways of watching the show -- English and Japanese -- that I think are different enough to make it worth watching the show twice. You don't get that with movie DVDs; you'd be lucky if you got an audio commentary, but those are generally boring anyway. My point is that the original and the dub are two different experiences that should be enjoyed and judged separately. I don't privilege one over the other because it came first.

I love the Japanese version and the Americanized version of Z, but think that the Americanized version gets a bad wrap simply because it is not the original. The Japanese Anime is an interpretation of the manga, even Toriyama has said in interviews when they would do certain things he was surprised they did it that way. I see the US dub as that interpretation of the anime. Whether or not you like the music is a personal preference but someone preferring the US music over the Japanese play set is not wrong for liking it better they just don't share your tastes.

[VegettoEX]

To address one of those points:

If I wanted to watch an American adaptation - one done from the ground up - I would watch that, and not an American adaptation ("reversioned" DBZ) of a Japanese adaptation (the original anime) of a Japanese product (the original manga). Of course, all we really have the fits the bill is Evolution, but it's there!

I think it's a super weak analogy to pull with the "The dub is just an interpretation of the manga!" statement. No, it's not. They weren't doing anything with the manga, and let's not delude ourselves that they were. They were "reversioning" the existing show to fit their own needs and goals, none of which I was interested in, and I continue to not be interested in. I'm here to watch DBZ, not Barry Watson's interpretation of DBZ.

It goes without saying (I would hope...?), but I understand that other people are interested in that, and I continue to say that I'm simply not. I think that a more faithful adaptation of the series would have been just as successful in America as it was when done as such everywhere else in the world, and we would have a more unified global fandom with a product that everyone took similar experiences and memories from.

The music is one part of that.

[Kakarot88]

I'm not saying that Funimation even looked at the manga lol, I am saying that the Japanese dub was an interpretation of the manga and the Americanized version of that was its take on the Japanese dub.
manga -->Japanese anime interpretation
Japanese anime of dragon ball z--> US's altering of it.

Different strokes for different folks and without these differences there would be nothing to discuss!

[cRookie_Monster]

Remove Kikuchi - No royalties to pay.
Create new score and air on TV - Receive royalties

It was win/win for them.

Funimation not only had to pay for the creation of the Faulconer score, but also pays Bruce royalties on it. Not much difference there, actually it was probably more expensive to use the U.S. music. I'm not convinced they pay royalties on the Japanese music, maybe they do. The point is, It's less work and costs less to use the original music. I think this is a big reason anime dubbing companies do this now-a-days. Since they realize now that people will watch the shows with the Japanese scores...they don't bother rescoring. Too much hassle and $$$.

Like we've said a lot already, the intent was to adapt the show for the late 90s U.S. audience (preteen and adolescent boys as others have stated)

...
I think Scott's a freakin' great dude that's done me plenty of solids in the past and shows an incredible understanding of the original source material and has proven time and time again he's an amazing fan of the franchise.
...

Thanks man. That's great to hear. And I in turn should thank you for letting me come here and blatantly..umm...promote my material. I've benefited a lot from coming here and getting fan ideas and exposure. THANKS!

Hey, look at the positives. Scott Morgan became a successful musician out of this ordeal. FUNi gained more profit than they normally would have, thus, making them a dubbing giant in North America. I don't know man, if the outcome would be replicated today without this score.

More positives than negatives for sure.

Thanks! but define successful No, it's cool to have a subscriber base on youtube. It doesn't make me even remotely close enough money to make a living but it's fun Since 2005 my music has been more about fun than money. Even before that really...it's just back then I could better afford to live on a musician's wages (being young)

These days I only make like 300/500 hundred dollars A YEAR on mp3 sales\streams. My money comes from my day job as a test developer for Microsoft/Xbox.

I'll stay out of the whole "Faulconer damaged DBZ" discussion. Well kind of...my thought is that it's either purely subjective or pure speculation at this point now that both scores are available (and Shuki Levy's...I saw the "Rock The Dragon" edition in a store the other day)

[dbzfan7]

Too be honest the faulconer score was more enjoyable for me in the GBA games. I think most songs were better on Legacy 2 and Boo's Fury.

[Super Kal]

in all honesty, i loved the Falconer score... i still remember buying the Trunks compendium. i think I still have that CD lying around somewhere

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

To address one of those points:

If I wanted to watch an American adaptation - one done from the ground up - I would watch that, and not an American adaptation ("reversioned" DBZ) of a Japanese adaptation (the original anime) of a Japanese product (the original manga). Of course, all we really have the fits the bill is Evolution, but it's there!


I think it's a super weak analogy to pull with the "The dub is just an interpretation of the manga!" statement. No, it's not. They weren't doing anything with the manga, and let's not delude ourselves that they were. They were "reversioning" the existing show to fit their own needs and goals, none of which I was interested in, and I continue to not be interested in. I'm here to watch DBZ, not Barry Watson's interpretation of DBZ.

I agree that you can't say the dub is interpretation of the manga. FUNimation's DBZ is an adaptation of an adaptation of a source material, which you're apparently saying is one too many adaptations for your taste. And that's fine. That's your opinion, but don't expect others to necessarily conform to it. Just because the dub is further away than the original version from the source, doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad.

[VegettoEX]

I'm not expecting you to conform to it.

I'm expressing my very harsh opinion about its very existence and why I think it's a bad thing and why I think the entire franchise would have been better off without it.

Which is what was asked of me.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'm just trying to understand your position here.

I'm expressing my very harsh opinion about its very existence

Which is what? That it's unnecessary? I agree completely. I agree that DBZ with the original score would've been a success in the US as it was in other countries around the world. But the fact that it's unnecessary doesn't mean it's automatically bad. You have to separate the work from the creator or the motivation from the result. You've already admitted that the decision to change the score was business-related and not taken out of arrogance, so I don't think you're implying that here.

and why I think it's a bad thing

I agree, but not simply because it exists. I gave it a chance, assessed it on its own merits and demerits, and came to the conclusion that it was bad. You seem to think it's a bad thing simply because it exists and changes the original experience and now some people view it as the original experience.

and why I think the entire franchise would have been better off without it.

What lasting damage has it done to the franchise? Unlike 4kids, FUNimation gave us uncut, bilingual releases. 4kids released three volumes of uncut Yu-Gi-Oh! and then pulled the plug. Whereas we can watch all 290 or so episodes of DBZ in Japanese with accurate subtitles (not to mention the Dragon Boxes). You're not forced to watch it on the official release if you don't want to.

[Ajay]

and why I think the entire franchise would have been better off without it.

What lasting damage has it done to the franchise? Unlike 4kids, FUNimation gave us uncut, bilingual releases. 4kids released three volumes of uncut Yu-Gi-Oh! and then pulled the plug. Whereas we can watch all 290 or so episodes of DBZ in Japanese with accurate subtitles (not to mention the Dragon Boxes). You're not forced to watch it on the official release if you don't want to.

It's given the US fanbase a version of the show that is nothing but an inaccurate portrayal of the show. That's pretty lasting damage, especially considering this is yet another way to divide the fanbase.

[Fionordequester]

No, it didn't really. It was the localization team and their script that gave us an inaccurate (though not really THAT inaccurate, IMO) portrayal, not the music. Otherwise, you may as well just call Dragon Ball Z Kai (Frieza Saga) and Dragon Ball Z Kai (Cell Saga) two different versions of Dragon Ball Z Kai!

And why do you say "divided up the fanbase" like it's a bad thing? Things would be boring if we agreed on everything all the time!

[VegettoEX]

You don't have to agree on your personal interpretation of scenes, but at least when I talk to certain peers about Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2, we're all talking about a version where he's not endlessly monologing to himself with music that sets an entirely different sort of tone.

There are countless examples of this. I have these conversations on the forum. I have these conversations in person at conventions. We're coming from two completely different viewing experiences of what is, sure, underneath at the base level the exact same story (strong guy beats up other strong guy), but when it's not a common viewing experience, it's not the same conversation we're having.

When I talk to someone who watched the original Japanese version - or a faithful dub that kept appropriate dialog and even at least just an instrumental of "Unmei no Hi" - I know that, even if we interpret different things about the scene (for example, what does the bird represent?), the actual scene itself came across the exact same way to our brains for them to in turn start doing the extra work.

That's what I'm talking about.

But I feel like I explain this all the time. I don't know if it even makes sense to "the other side" (for lack of a better phrase). I don't know if it does, and they're just being indignant about it and holding up their dub as if it was the same viewing experience (I'm not saying "better" or "worse", just saying that it was different).

[Kakarot88]

But I feel like I explain this all the time. I don't know if it even makes sense to "the other side" (for lack of a better phrase). I don't know if it does, and they're just being indignant about it and holding up their dub as if it was the same viewing experience (I'm not saying "better" or "worse", just saying that it was different).

You are not just saying "it was different"...You openly rip and hate on the dub in a great deal of your podcasts especially when discussing news of home video releases. You all but sounded physically ill at the prospect of touching an orange brick set and offered it for a prize in an email contest so people could set if on fire...I've just been going through the manga reviews of awesomeness so you may not remember (that didnt sound creepy ) but they're new to me and I love them. I mean c'mon man, you make a point of having corrections for people who dont call Mark Satan by his "real" name or auto correct other spellings ...You hate on the American dub and its music...a lot! If you were actually neutral I guarantee you people, like myself, who enjoy Faulconer pieces would not care what you said about it. The difference is that you are a super fan and one who in certain circles is quite popular so when you speak it has powerful effects. If you decree that you find a certain thing good or bad you will have hoards concurring simply if not to suckle from the power teat.

All that is to say you are awesome for this webcite and all your work and contributions but kinda suck at being impartial, which is actually a good thing. Because if you weren't this passionate Kanzenshuu would not exist. So thanks for being awesome and bias. Heck without your bias I wouldn't have bothered to try and learn the correct pronunciations of some of the attacks

[90sDBZ]

Well I agree with those who say that Dragonball is something that transcends the restrictions of a specific version. And I can't see how the Faulconer score has harmed the franchise even if I were to take the standpoint that the original is all that matters. Think of it this way. The Faulconer score helped to increase the popularity of the show and as a result a lot of the dub viewers ended up buying the DVDs and trying out the Japanese version as a result. In the long run it did nothing but good for the franchise. Also had the dub been more faithful people would have been less interested in seeing the Japanese version as it wouldn't be much different. I actually feel like I have zero interest in watching Kai in Japanese as the dub is already so close to it.

Also out of curiosity what does everyone think of the Levy score? For all the hate the Faulconer score gets from some I don't see that much mention of the Levy score. The Levy score despite being different did have similarities to the Faulconer score in that it was also near constant with the placement and put a great emphasis on the heroic action elements of the series. In some ways it set the standard for the Faulconer score to follow. I thoroughly enjoy both scores and feel like they were both an improvement over Kikuchi in Z.

[VegettoEX]

If you were actually neutral I guarantee you people, like myself, who enjoy Faulconer pieces would not care what you said about it.

Well, if I was neutral about it, there wouldn't be anything that I said that would even exist to comment on, agree with, or disagree with! Of course you wouldn't care!

I'm not saying that, overall as an individual and throughout everything I've ever said in my life, that I don't dislike the Faulconer Productions score and think it's an absolutely terrible piece of art that should not have been included as a part of the production it was included as a part of. That much is clear, especially for folks that have been following me for the 15 years that I've been running my site (well, not that Faulconer Productions had a score going back 15 years... but you get the point!).

At least in this particular conversation / thought-exercise, as I even said right from the very get-go, I'm pretty hesitant about getting SUPER into it about all the little things that I dislike about the score and the problems I think it's caused. It's just not fun to me. I get absolutely no enjoyment out of it. If anything, it just makes me more upset, and that's not a place I want to be at in 2013 with as much as I still love the franchise as a whole.

I do think that score caused problems - long-lasting ones at that - and while I concede that they're not Earth-shattering and I surely don't stay up all night lamenting its existence crying myself to sleep that poor ol' Bruce ever got a paycheck, I do stand by my beliefs, even if I find it difficult to consistently get into long-form conversations about them so many years later.

(For what it's worth, an English dub existing on the orange bricks has absolutely nothing to do with my undying hatred for that product. Everything that's bad about that product affects the original Japanese version.)

(Also for what it's worth, you're an awesome dude and I love that I can have this conversation with you and feel absolutely no true animosity.)