BOG inconsistencies/changes

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Zephyr
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by Zephyr » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:00 am

hleV wrote:↑ If you're not gonna discuss in-universe, what are you even doing here?
Giving in-universe explanations for things that seem to not make sense to people? The majority of my above post was in-universe.
hleV wrote:[*]Androids - while it's hard to comprehend Gero's ability to create such strong artificial beings, we know Dragon World has advanced technology, and that Gero worked hard to make them exactly this strong. It wasn't as though new villains appeared and they're randomly stronger than Freeza because plot, there's a fine in-universe explanation: they were designed to be that strong. (As for simply conquering the world, 1,000 BP should be enough for the androids.)
Gonna have to disagree there. Gero didn't know about Super Saiyans/Freeza and that Goku and company would be near that kind of realm of power. If he did, he wouldn't have been surprised when Goku transformed. Seems more than a tad overkill if he was predicting to fight Saiyan-arc Goku + some odd years of mountain training. In short, I'd say it was indeed a case of new villains appearing and they're randomly stronger than Freeza because of plot. They had no need to be stronger than Freeza, because Gero wasn't planning to fight anyone anywhere near that kind of level of power. But this specific part of the discussion is veering a bit out of universe.
hleV wrote:Super Saiyan God - what the fucking hell. A Saiyan ritual that randomly gives Goku power nearly matching Beerus'? It doesn't make sense from in-universe perspective. I think many people can see that.
But that's commonplace. A Saiyan transformation that gives Goku enough power to overcome Freeza? Another Saiyan transformation triggered by Gohan's rage gives him enough power to overcome Cell? Yet another Saiyan transformation allow Gotenks to perfectly match Evil Buu? Super Saiyan God is literally no different, other than the way it's achieved.

A group of powerful people channeling their power into another person powering them up? Makes perfect sense, and it's been done before. Multiple righteous ki signatures combining to spark a divine ki signature? I don't see why this can't make sense, unless you're just wanting it not to. Divine ki signature + high-level Saiyan power + multiple peoples' power into one person = insanely powerful transformation. It all seems extremely basic and easy to understand.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by rereboy » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:48 am

- I would have made Vegeta turn SSJ3 during his rage boost. Otherwise it would be the same.

- I would have made Gohan look noticeably stronger than either Goku or Vegeta (without SSJG) and have Bills state as such.

- I would have made Gotenks go SSJ3. It didn't make sense for him to fight just in his SSJ. And I would have made him fare a little better agaisnt Bills.

- I would have left Gohan with a white aura during the SSJG power-up.

- I would have Goku and Bills fight on the Grand Kaio planet. Goku's punch would go through that planet instead.

- I would have Pilaf and the others with their natural age and after Goku had made his wish regarding SSJG, Pilaf would use the Dragon's SECOND WISH for youth before anyone could stop him and they would revert back to kids. Naturally their role up until that point would have to be changed. I would have them sneaking around and being caught, with everybody recognizing them.

- I would have made sparks in SSJ2 much more noticeable.

- I would have Vegeta being a little more serious. He was too goofy, out of character even.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:33 am

hleV wrote:With that kind of logic, every hit in the series happened because the opponent was caught off-guard.
What?
hleV wrote:Did Beerus suddenly lower his power after attacking Vegeta?
No, he most likely just hit Gohan & Gotenks harder than he hit Vegeta (we know he can kill them all with his finger if he wanted to), and let his guard down because he didn't expect Vegeta to be that strong. He allowed Vegeta to hit him after his surprise because he was hoping that Vegeta would become the Super Saiyan God (Beers said that).
hleV wrote:If you have Godku stronger than SS (or SS3, even) Vegetto just because of some statement about power realm
I don't see any problem, since Super Saiyan God Goku is the combination of 5 Super Saiyans (Pan doesn't count since she had no power) + a form beyond Super Saiyan 3, while Super Vegetto is a combination of 2 Super Saiyans (who are part of the 5 Super Saiyans). Plus, the Super Saiyan God is the god of the strongest fighting race in the 7th Universe.
hleV wrote:if you're fine with Vegeta getting a rage boost, which was said in the series to be Saiyan-Human hybrid-exclusive
While it's stupid & the first thing I would remove from the movie, it is stated in the movie to be a completely different thing from Gohan's rage boosts:
  • Gohan: draws power from his dormant powers through race because he is a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling.
  • Vegeta: forcibly increases his power to get stronger through rage, leaves him exhausted after that (that's how Goku described it). It has nothing to do with his dormant power, it seems to be something like amplification. Perhaps he was working on it while training, but never succeeded until the fight with Beers?
hleV wrote:if you're so fine with a movie that arguably has more plotholes than some of the movies that don't even fit into the timeline
The plot holes of the movie are not serious & not very hard to explain.
hleV wrote:then Vegeta's rage boost making him like 1000x (or whatever, enough to make Beerus bleed) stronger than his usual SS2 self isn't so far-fetched.
He doesn't have to be 1000 times stronger, since Beers was using less than 70% of his power (far less most likely), and was caught off guard.

hleV wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:
Gogeta deserves to be canon.
He is "canon". He just hasn't appeared.
With that king of logic, everything is canon just hasn't appeared. You don't even know if Goku & Vegeta's fusion would be named Gogeta or look like Gogeta, so no. Gogeta is non-canon to the manga.
Well, Toriyama did draw SS Gogeta once, so maybe he is "manga canon", since he can be made (unlike SS4)?

Zephyr wrote:
hleV wrote:Super Saiyan God - what the fucking hell. A Saiyan ritual that randomly gives Goku power nearly matching Beerus'? It doesn't make sense from in-universe perspective. I think many people can see that.
But that's commonplace. A Saiyan transformation that gives Goku enough power to overcome Freeza? Another Saiyan transformation triggered by Gohan's rage gives him enough power to overcome Cell? Yet another Saiyan transformation allow Gotenks to perfectly match Evil Buu? Super Saiyan God is literally no different, other than the way it's achieved.
I think the correct example is Cell getting a new power-up to match with Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by Zephyr » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:41 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I think the correct example is Cell getting a new power-up to match with Gohan.
Just as applicable.

Two more involve Piccolo fusing with Nail to be able to perfectly match 2nd form Freeza, and Piccolo fusing with Kami to be able to perfectly match #17. Or Goku drinking the Super God Water to be able to perfectly match Piccolo Daimao.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:57 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Gogeta deserves to be canon.
He is "canon". He just hasn't appeared.
With that king of logic, everything is canon just hasn't appeared. You don't even know if Goku & Vegeta's fusion would be named Gogeta or look like Gogeta, so no. Gogeta is non-canon to the manga.[/quote]


You do realize Toriyama original wanted Gogeta to fight Boo but Toei used Gogeta for Movie 12 so he came up with the Potara.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:28 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:You do realize Toriyama original wanted Gogeta to fight Boo but Toei used Gogeta for Movie 12 so he came up with the Potara.
Yes, he was planning to have Goku & Vegeta do Fusion... but would the result be named "Gogeta"? And would that Gogeta look like the same Gogeta we saw in M12? Probably not.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:32 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:You do realize Toriyama original wanted Gogeta to fight Boo but Toei used Gogeta for Movie 12 so he came up with the Potara.
Yes, he was planning to have Goku & Vegeta do Fusion... but would the result be named "Gogeta"? And would that Gogeta look like the same Gogeta we saw in M12? Probably not.
His name would have been Gogeta............
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:34 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:His name would have been Gogeta............
And why not Vegetto? Or Veku? Or Kakageta?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:36 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:His name would have been Gogeta............
And why not Vegetto? Or Veku? Or Kakageta?
Vegetto could have been a possibility, but I highly doubt after using Gotenks he wouldn't use Gogeta.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:36 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:His name would have been Gogeta............
And why not Vegetto? Or Veku? Or Kakageta?
Because he made a change for the potara. So I would imagine that he would use something similar to Gotenks. So Gogeta
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:38 pm

Since the name Gogeta wasn't Toriyama's idea for M12 (as far as we know), and we are not in Toriyama's head, we can't know what Toriyama had in his head. Gogeta is a possibility, sure, but we can't know for sure.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:45 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Because he made a change for the potara. So I would imagine that he would use something similar to Gotenks. So Gogeta
He made change to introduce the Potara because Toei used the Metamorean fusion for Goku and Vegeta before he could. That doesn't mean that Vegetto's name and face weren't his intended choices for the theoretical Metamorean fusion he abandoned though, or even something else that didn't resemble either of the ones we got in name or face.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:49 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Because he made a change for the potara. So I would imagine that he would use something similar to Gotenks. So Gogeta
He made change to introduce the Potara because Toei used the Metamorean fusion for Goku and Vegeta before he could. That doesn't mean that Vegetto's name and face weren't his intended choices for the theoretical Metamorean fusion he abandoned though, or even something else that didn't resemble either of the ones we got in name or face.
But he would be wearing fusion clothes not a mixture of outfits...
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:54 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:But he would be wearing fusion clothes not a mixture of outfits...
That's the only thing we know for sure, but nothing else.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:59 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:But he would be wearing fusion clothes not a mixture of outfits...
That's the only thing we know for sure, but nothing else.
Wasn't replying to what you said....
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:00 pm

I know.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by Saiyatonian » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:42 pm

Wasn't there a part when Kaio-sama said that they can't feel a god's presence, then later on Goku used instant transmission against Birusu?
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:05 pm

Saiyatonian wrote:Wasn't there a part when Kaio-sama said that they can't feel a god's presence, then later on Goku used instant transmission against Birusu?
Goku has eye sight.... He just teleported behind him. Plus Goku had Godpowers in him(Even though SSG ran out)
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by Saiyatonian » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:06 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Saiyatonian wrote:Wasn't there a part when Kaio-sama said that they can't feel a god's presence, then later on Goku used instant transmission against Birusu?
Goku has eye sight.... He just teleported behind him. Plus Goku had Godpowers in him(Even though SSG ran out)
You can't use Instant Transmission without sensing one's ki. Though, I guess it does make sense with the god powers thing.
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Re: BOG inconsistencies/changes

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:24 pm

Yeah, Goku could still access SSJG's power, so he was able to sense Beers. Or at least, that's my guess.
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