BOG inconsistencies/changes

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But he would be wearing fusion clothes not a mixture of outfits...

Obviously, because it would have been the Metamorean fusion technique. I didn't think that needed to be pointed out.

[KaiserNeko]

Um, why does he need to sense someone's ki to use Shunkan Idō? I mean, he needs it to lock onto a certain person's location that he cannot SEE, sure. But there's nothing saying that he can -only- use Shunkan Idō after he's locked onto a person's ki. That just seems ridiculous.

[Kamiccolo9]

Um, why does he need to sense someone's ki to use Shunkan Idō? I mean, he needs it to lock onto a certain person's location that he cannot SEE, sure. But there's nothing saying that he can -only- use Shunkan Idō after he's locked onto a person's ki. That just seems ridiculous.

Shunkan-ido [Instantaneous Movement/Teleportation]
First Appearance: Chapter 336
Category: movement
People: Son Goku, Cell
Special Characteristics: A technique that Goku learned from the aliens that live on Planet Yardrat, which he visited by chance when he escaped from Planet Namek. This teleportation senses a person’s ki, then moves to where that person is. Because of this, it is impossible to move anywhere that does not have people or ki you know. Cell remembered this way of moving when he teleported with Goku. This technique is not just used for moving, but can also be included in offensive techniques. (Daizenshuu 2, p.213/Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

What he can see seems to be irrelevant. It seems to rely solely on ki sensing.

[KaiserNeko]

Um, why does he need to sense someone's ki to use Shunkan Idō? I mean, he needs it to lock onto a certain person's location that he cannot SEE, sure. But there's nothing saying that he can -only- use Shunkan Idō after he's locked onto a person's ki. That just seems ridiculous.

Shunkan-ido [Instantaneous Movement/Teleportation]
First Appearance: Chapter 336
Category: movement
People: Son Goku, Cell
Special Characteristics: A technique that Goku learned from the aliens that live on Planet Yardrat, which he visited by chance when he escaped from Planet Namek. This teleportation senses a person’s ki, then moves to where that person is. Because of this, it is impossible to move anywhere that does not have people or ki you know. Cell remembered this way of moving when he teleported with Goku. This technique is not just used for moving, but can also be included in offensive techniques. (Daizenshuu 2, p.213/Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

What he can see seems to be irrelevant. It seems to rely solely on ki sensing.

So, this is from the Daizenshuu.

To be honest? ... I've stopped holding the Daizenshuu up as a concrete source of information. It makes no sense that Son's Shunkan Idō needs Ki to use. If he can SEE a spot, why can't he just teleport there? That sounds ridiculous to me, honestly.

[Kamiccolo9]

Um, why does he need to sense someone's ki to use Shunkan Idō? I mean, he needs it to lock onto a certain person's location that he cannot SEE, sure. But there's nothing saying that he can -only- use Shunkan Idō after he's locked onto a person's ki. That just seems ridiculous.

Shunkan-ido [Instantaneous Movement/Teleportation]
First Appearance: Chapter 336
Category: movement
People: Son Goku, Cell
Special Characteristics: A technique that Goku learned from the aliens that live on Planet Yardrat, which he visited by chance when he escaped from Planet Namek. This teleportation senses a person’s ki, then moves to where that person is. Because of this, it is impossible to move anywhere that does not have people or ki you know. Cell remembered this way of moving when he teleported with Goku. This technique is not just used for moving, but can also be included in offensive techniques. (Daizenshuu 2, p.213/Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

What he can see seems to be irrelevant. It seems to rely solely on ki sensing.

So, this is from the Daizenshuu.

To be honest? ... I've stopped holding the Daizenshuu up as a concrete source of information. It makes no sense that Son's Shunkan Idō needs Ki to use. If he can SEE a spot, why can't he just teleport there? That sounds ridiculous to me, honestly.

For what it's worth, the anime and movies seem to support that he can use it without sensing. I think he manages to dodge one of Pure Buu's attacks while charging the Genki Dama, and there's that whole weird "teleportation dimension" thing going on in Movie 6, and Cooler, as a machine, shouldn't have any ki to sense (I think).

[mAcChaos]

I never thought that Genki Dama dodge was Instantaneous Movement. I just thought he moved normally. Because he never puts his fingers to his head or concentrates.

[Kamiccolo9]

I never thought that Genki Dama dodge was Instantaneous Movement. I just thought he moved normally. Because he never puts his fingers to his head or concentrates.

He doesn't in Movie 6 either. And he's not touching his forehead when he appears back with Roshi's sunglasses. I don't think that the forehead touching is really necessary, just like the full Kamehameha pose isn't necessary.

[dbzfan7]

Can't Kaio or the Kaioshin sense Birus? So after Goku becomes a god couldn't he.

[KentalSSJ6]

I think the whole finger to the forehead thing was to help the readers help tell the difference between Instant Transmission and just real high speed movement. The anime doesent help either in the case of Goku VS Cell. The way they move and vanish in combat looks just like and even has the same sound effect (for the most part) than Instant Transmission.

High Speed Combat



Instant Transmission



The vanishing effect looks nearly identical so in all honesty, I think the whole finger to the forehead was to help tell the difference.

[Kamiccolo9]

But like I said, look at Movie 6. Goku and Cooler fight while using the technique, and neither touch their foreheads. And he doesn't do it for the Instant Transmission Kamehameha either, so it's clearly not necessary.

[KentalSSJ6]

But like I said, look at Movie 6. Goku and Cooler fight while using the technique, and neither touch their foreheads. And he doesn't do it for the Instant Transmission Kamehameha either, so it's clearly not necessary.

Ok but wasent Movie 6 loaded with inconsistencies and plotholes to begin with? If I was gonna use reference material, the movies wouldn't be my first choice to be honest, id use the manga to be sure.

[Kamiccolo9]

But like I said, look at Movie 6. Goku and Cooler fight while using the technique, and neither touch their foreheads. And he doesn't do it for the Instant Transmission Kamehameha either, so it's clearly not necessary.

Ok but wasent Movie 6 loaded with inconsistencies and plotholes to begin with? If I was gonna use reference material, the movies wouldn't be my first choice to be honest, id use the manga to be sure.

Well, this whole thing started with me telling Kaiser that the anime and movies supported Instant Transmission not requiring ki sensing. Which is why I brought up M6 in the first place.

The Instant Transmission Kamehameha was in the manga, however.

[KentalSSJ6]

You think Toriyama could have forgotten or just couldn't think of a way to incorporate the the finger to the forehead? I mean this is the same Toriyama who forgot pupils for SSJ3 and even confused SSJ2 and SSJ3 for each other. I really wouldn't read too deep into the matter if I were you.

[Z-Dragon]

Goku used the technique to get Tien and Piccolo out of here to the Lookout without touching his forehead before Semi-Perfect Cell was going to stop him, remember? It seems like Goku learned how to do the trick for IT to teleport without touching his forehead. He mostly uses it with his forehead all the time and sometime doing it without his forehead to teleport, I guess.

[Kamiccolo9]

You think Toriyama could have forgotten or just couldn't think of a way to incorporate the the finger to the forehead? I mean this is the same Toriyama who forgot pupils for SSJ3 and even confused SSJ2 and SSJ3 for each other. I really wouldn't read too deep into the matter if I were you.

How am I looking to deeply into it? If Goku can use it without touching his forehead, then the technique doesn't require the user to touch his forehead. It's that simple.

[Saiga]

I always thought the fingers to his forehead was to help him lock onto the ki, not the teleportation itself. So it's not strictly necessary.

I don't get what's so illogical about him only being able to teleport to a ki he can sense, maybe he really doesn't have much control over his movement without a ki signature serving as an anchor?

[goku the krump dancer]

I always thought the fingers to his forehead was to help him lock onto the ki, not the teleportation itself. So it's not strictly necessary.

I agree with this.

But I also think its a habit of just drawing him with the fingers on his forehead. Goku did not grow a third hand to put two fingers on his forehead to warp in from Cell yet he put his fingers on his head to warp behind Kid Boo during their battle.

[KaiserNeko]

If Goku requires to use a ki as an anchor, then I wonder if it's possible he can just use his OWN ki as an anchor, thus allowing him to move shorter distances.

[Saiyatonian]

Um, why does he need to sense someone's ki to use Shunkan Idō? I mean, he needs it to lock onto a certain person's location that he cannot SEE, sure. But there's nothing saying that he can -only- use Shunkan Idō after he's locked onto a person's ki. That just seems ridiculous.

Shunkan-ido [Instantaneous Movement/Teleportation]
First Appearance: Chapter 336
Category: movement
People: Son Goku, Cell
Special Characteristics: A technique that Goku learned from the aliens that live on Planet Yardrat, which he visited by chance when he escaped from Planet Namek. This teleportation senses a person’s ki, then moves to where that person is. Because of this, it is impossible to move anywhere that does not have people or ki you know. Cell remembered this way of moving when he teleported with Goku. This technique is not just used for moving, but can also be included in offensive techniques. (Daizenshuu 2, p.213/Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

What he can see seems to be irrelevant. It seems to rely solely on ki sensing.

So, this is from the Daizenshuu.

To be honest? ... I've stopped holding the Daizenshuu up as a concrete source of information. It makes no sense that Son's Shunkan Idō needs Ki to use. If he can SEE a spot, why can't he just teleport there? That sounds ridiculous to me, honestly.

It doesn't really matter seeing as how the ki is already so close to him, he wouldn't need to see it. He could be looking away from whoever he's fighting and still use it.

[goku the krump dancer]

He was looking at Beers the entire time anyway.