Why do so many American fans hate Kai?

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:53 am

According to you. Yes.

I don't read the manga like the acting in Kai portrays. I read it as more intense like the Japanese dub and hinging on the Funimation one, hence why I like those 2 better. Kai got the words right, finally, just not the delivery IMO and for me the delivery matters more as I am watching it for entertainment after all.

Fennekin · Post by **Fennekin** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:44 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Nostalgia. That's all. A lot of them are blinded by it. Even to the point of saying(I know it's their opinion) that Sean in Z was better than Sean in Kai.

Exactly.

Since I got into the franchise with Z Kai, I noticed a major difference in the quality of Z compared to Z Kai, especially with the voice actors. It's also appealing that Z Kai cut out a lot of the filler, which was bonus points for me.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Gonstead wrote:Phoning-in is the absolute last place you'll be hearing any sort of acting in Kai. Compare ANY scene from DBZ compared to Kai and 99.99% of the time, Kai will win it over.

Quite frankly, EVERYONE in the old Funimation dub sucked and were full of reading-off-a-script and phoned-on dialogue because pretty much NONE of them had any real acting experience.

You speak about Goku not sounding like what Goku is. Reality check: What you hear Goku say in Kai IS who Goku is! Goku is not some superman clone that you hear in the old Z dub and that's a fact. There is no denying that.

And SSJ Goku? HE'S IN A FIT OF RAGE! He just lost is longtime best friend and the guy responsible is suggesting if he should kill his child next? What are you honestly expecting him to say in such a situation? Do you really expect him to go "Darn you! You big meanie-pants!"? He's fucking angry as hell for crying out loud. The whole scene in the Z dub feels like reading off a script.

If I want a legitimate translation of Dragon Ball Z, complete with better acting, better writing, better voices, better pacing, more manga accurate, music that at LEAST was originally composed for the show, I'll go with Kai. If I want an illegitimate version of Dragon Ball Z, complete with sub-par acting, sub-par writing, drawn-out longer than necessary scenes and music that 99.99% of the time never shuts up, I'll go with the original Z dub.

Hell, the Ocean dub of the Saiyan and Namek arcs is leaps and bounds better than the Funimation Z dub. Even if it was something corny, the acting at least made up for it.

Most of them were literally amateurs who just got into voice acting and literally had like 1 take to get the line right. You can literally go ask any of the actors from Z on their facebook, twitter, etc and none of them will say their acting was better in Z.

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:55 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:Most of them were literally amateurs who just got into voice acting and literally had like 1 take to get the line right. You can literally go ask any of the actors from Z on their facebook, twitter, etc and none of them will say their acting was better in Z.

So what? Who cares if they like their acting better? You're trying to make an objective point based on subjective opinion which ironically is illogical. My favorite color is blue. If God were to tell me "You know I made that when I was just starting out creating stuff and I think in fact when I later made the color red I did a better job." I would respond "neat, God, but I still think you did better with blue."

The fact you and they think their acting is better or more like how the show should be is fantastic, yay for you and them. I 100% disagree, the Japanese VAs were more intense and sounded into it as did the original run through in Z, the fact that the America voice actors now have more experience is irrelevant as I find it lackluster in comparison...maybe enjoying the show in Japanese tainted my opinion and I only enjoy Z for my nostalgia, regardless I find Kai on a whole to be a poor product. Granted the Buu arc just may (hopefully) be awesome and I am looking forward to that!

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:05 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:Most of them were literally amateurs who just got into voice acting and literally had like 1 take to get the line right. You can literally go ask any of the actors from Z on their facebook, twitter, etc and none of them will say their acting was better in Z.
So what? Who cares if they like their acting better? You're trying to make an objective point based on subjective opinion which ironically is illogical. My favorite color is blue. If God were to tell me "You know I made that when I was just starting out creating stuff and I think in fact when I later made the color red I did a better job." I would respond "neat, God, but I still think you did better with blue."

The fact you and they think their acting is better or more like how the show should be is fantastic, yay for you and them. I 100% disagree, the Japanese VAs were more intense and sounded into it as did the original run through in Z, the fact that the America voice actors now have more experience is irrelevant as I find it lackluster in comparison...maybe enjoying the show in Japanese tainted my opinion and I only enjoy Z for my nostalgia, regardless I find Kai on a whole to be a poor product. Granted the Buu arc just may (hopefully) be awesome and I am looking forward to that!

It's like comparing Tommy Wiseau to RDJ. Anyone who says Tommy Wiseau is better is wrong (infact he makes it look like the Z Dub had big budget voices). Like how in Z they are so wooden, so lifeless, so half assed. But it wasn't all their fault. The directors were to blame as well. It's like preferring monotone to emotion.

If you really wanna say you enjoy the Z dub more, then more power to ya. But your problems with Kai can so easily be applied to the Z dub 10 fold.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:12 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote: I think you mean, "They're acting with more subtlety than the over-the-top delivery they used to slap onto each scene."
Some of the scenes sound as if they were taken from spliced together dialogue, more specifically that the actors were not actually in the same studio and interacting and rather recorded the scenes apart and then were packed ito the dialogue accordingly by the editors. The interactions feel off...and it makes sense because I've heard from them at panels that yeah they were in other states recording some scenes.

For the record this is standard ADR process and few directors are left that insist on the cast recording together. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Andrea Romano, and I'm not even sure if she still has them do it.

Hell, even the Ocean dub was probably done this way. And I can tell you that some shows turn out better when the parts are recorded independently of one another. If you watch Tenchi Muyo the acting quality goes u by FAR after the first OVA because they eventually switched over to this style.

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:14 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:Like how in Z they are so wooden, so lifeless, so half assed. But it wasn't all their fault. The directors were to blame as well. It's like preferring monotone to emotion.

Haha k...
Vegeta goes Super Saiyan in Funi Z (for some reason the audio is delayed at the begining): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqEqgEXHYkM
COMPARED to the "oh so not wooden Kai!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER4YsXjFFAY

bahahaha

yeah it's so much better so much more passionate!

NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z. period. It's not better it's different. It lacks the heart that the Japanese dub and American dub of Z had. Correct dialogue? check! Correct delivery...sometimes. Music that does not sound terrible with this American cast...bahahahahahahahaha NO!

You may have the final word, I don't feel like continuing this silly little argument.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:Like how in Z they are so wooden, so lifeless, so half assed. But it wasn't all their fault. The directors were to blame as well. It's like preferring monotone to emotion.
Haha k...
Vegeta goes Super Saiyan in Funi Z (for some reason the audio is delayed at the begining): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqEqgEXHYkM
COMPARED to the "oh so not wooden Kai!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER4YsXjFFAY

bahahaha yeah it's so much better so much more passionate!

NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z. period. It's not better it's different. It lacks the heart that the Japanese dub and American dub of Z had. Correct dialogue? check! Correct delivery...sometimes. Music that does not sound terrible with this American cast...bahahahahahahahaha NO!

You may have the final word, I don't feel like continuing this silly little argument.

Sabats twitter. Go ask him. He'll say he was better in Kai. I think he knows acting and performing better than YOU.

Oh yes ridiculously loud music that drowns out the already wooden performance voice in Z is so much better

KaiserNeko · Post by **KaiserNeko** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Wow, really? You're going to use that scene to compare?

Sabat is awful in that Z clip. He's slow, rigid, and when he does emote it's painful and oddly delivered. I'm not kidding when I say that this is prime example of bad acting in the original.

In Kai, it's confident, reserved, and SUBTLE. It's -better- like this; he's portraying Vegeta not as some over the top, acted, cocky blowhard but reserved, overly (but rightly) confident, and condescending. Not to mention the voice is so much better as well. His scream is better here, too. Fuller, less strained, and more focused.

You've got a lot of nostalgia for the original Z dub, it's obvious.

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:38 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:You've got a lot of nostalgia for the original Z dub, it's obvious.

Oh no!! What do I do!?!? Is there a cure!?? My God! I'm not just one of those people who joins the masses and unfortunately has varying opinions on this forum!!!! I CANNOT LOVE THE AMERICAN AND JAPANESE DUB BUT DISLIKE KAI!!! WHAT DO I DO HELP ME JOIN THE FLOCK!!!!"

Btw I guess I have been missing the point of DBZ Abriged, especially when y'all did that "Kai" fast forward episode. I thought y'all had a great love for the Funimation Z dub and the Japanese dub (like myself) and though Kai was lackluster, and that's why you made fun of it as well as the american Z. I did not realize y'all were just making fun of Z cuz you don't think it is any good. That's surprising to me! Although, I am super stoked for whenever the next episode comes out y'all are amazing fans!

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:39 pm

KaiserNeko tools the words right out of my mouth...

Say what you will about the differences in music in each dub, but Sabat's acting in the Kai version is clearly improved over the original Z dub.

KaiserNeko · Post by **KaiserNeko** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:42 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote:You've got a lot of nostalgia for the original Z dub, it's obvious.
Oh no!! What do I do!?!? Is there a cure!?? My God! I'm not just one of those people who joins the masses and unfortunately has varying opinions on this forum!!!! I CANNOT LOVE THE AMERICAN AND JAPANESE DUB BUT DISLIKE KAI!!! WHAT DO I DO HELP ME JOIN THE FLOCK!!!!"

Nice sarcasm. ;P

Btw I guess I have been missing the point of DBZ Abriged, especially when y'all did that "Kai" fast forward episode. I thought y'all had a great love for the Funimation Z dub and the Japanese dub (like myself) and though Kai was lackluster, and that's why you made fun of it as well as the american Z. I did not realize y'all were just making fun of Z cuz you don't think it is any good. That's surprising to me! Although, I am super stoked for whenever the next episode comes out y'all are amazing fans!

Pft, we don't make fun of Z because it isn't any good.

We love DragonBall Z! We just know that what we love also has some flaws. The filler is pretty awful and the Z dub is pretty... not good. The Kai dub is ridiculously better. The entire team shares that belief.

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:46 pm

Agreed. Just because you love something and are a fan of it doesn't mean it's free from scrutiny.

I watched most of the Ocean/FUNi Z dub on Cartoon Network back in the day and enjoyed it, but I still knew both the show and the dubs had significant flaws...

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:54 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:We love DragonBall Z! We just know that what we love also has some flaws. The filler is pretty awful and the Z dub is pretty... not good. The Kai dub is ridiculously better. The entire team shares that belief.

Fair enough, I can admit that I may be infected with nostalgia

but when I read the manga (which I read sometime concurrently and sometimes ahead of what aired on TV and formed my own opinions the first go round) I always read it with the sense of urgency that I find overly apparent in the American dub and appropriately present in the Japanese dub and subdued to the point of being lethargic in the "filler free" Kai. I just find Kai too subdued in a way that is totally different from the Japanese anime and in my opinion the manga which it allegedly is supposed to more closely adhere to. Tell ya what though Abriged makes me laugh out loud every time and I quote it with my friends almost as much as the Z american dub so at least I'm getting the best of all worlds.

CaBrPi · Post by **CaBrPi** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:01 pm

May be?

When I watched that clip, it literally felt like Chris Sabat was reading straight from a book like an elementary schooler. Hardly any inflection, unnatural pattern to the speech... It just doesn't sound like Vegeta's actually talking there at all.

Whereas in the Kai clip, yes, Android 19's voice really isn't much better, but Sabat's line-reading flows much more naturally like a person actually talking.

I dunno. If you really like the "reading" delivery of Z, I won't hold it against you.

TheBlackPaladin · Post by **TheBlackPaladin** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:26 pm

theoriginalbilis wrote:Agreed. Just because you love something and are a fan of it doesn't mean it's free from scrutiny.

I watched most of the Ocean/FUNi Z dub on Cartoon Network back in the day and enjoyed it, but I still knew both the show and the dubs had significant flaws...

I can't find the clip, but somebody once asked Dan Green (the English voice of Yugi in "Yu-Gi-Oh!") what his thoughts were on "Yu-Gi-Oh! Abridged," and he said that he thought it was hilarious and had no problem with it because, "It's my thought that no matter how much you love something, there's always something to be made fun of about it."

Kakarot88 · Post by **Kakarot88** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:29 pm

CaBrPi wrote:I dunno. If you really like the "reading" delivery of Z, I won't hold it against you.

haha yeah I really really do

cRookie_Monster · Post by **cRookie_Monster** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:43 pm

Watching both versions is very confusing for me. I'm still not adjusted to Vegeta's newer lower/smoother tone of voice....and there are so many other differences that affect the scene besides acting.

Different:
Music - only present in Z
Script - Vegeta uses bigger words in Kai.
Video editing - The transformation is about 12 seconds longer in Z.
Audio FX: Heavy reverb for the scream in KAI, no FX in Z.
Actually in Kai he only screams once where in Z he screams 5 times. 3 different screams with the last scream repeated 3x. That last push is nearly twice as long in Z.

I'll admit that the Z version gets my blood pumping a lot more...but it's a combo of many things, including my own perspective and what I'm used to. I'm suspicious of anyone who thinks they can separate all that out and judge any one element fairly. It would be better if there was isolation of variables.

Oh, one note. for good or bad. I don't know how they did Kai, but in the old days they use to try to match their voice to the lip flaps...and if they failed the audio would get edited to match video. Sometimes things might sound odd because of that practice. Dunno if Kai was any different.

TheGmGoken · Post by **TheGmGoken** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:52 pm

NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z.

Isn't that ignorant? Since Kai wasn't made cause of USA but for DBZ's Birthday or something like that. Why would Japan care for how bad American Z was. In fact Sean and Sabat fought for Kai(English) to be accurate instead of what we got before. So explain to me how Kai was made for USA fans who dislike USA Z.

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:11 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z.

No. Kai was made to celebrate the 20th Anniversary of the original DBZ TV series in Japan. It was also made as experiment by Toei to test the waters and rejuvenate the DBZ money train/merchandising craze they were experiencing years prior. The primary audience has always been and will continue to be the Japanese market.

The fact that we got it dubbed/released internationally a year or two later is a mere afterthought to the Japanese companies.

Luckily for the English-speaking market, FUNImation ultimately decided to do an accurate redub...

Kanzenshuu

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