Why do so many American fans hate Kai?

[TheGmGoken]

NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z.

No. Kai was made to celebrate the 20th Anniversary of the original DBZ TV series in Japan. It was also made as experiment by Toei to test the waters and rejuvenate the DBZ money train/merchandising craze they were experiencing years prior. The primary audience has always been and will continue to be the Japanese market.

The fact that we got it dubbed/released internationally a year or two later is a mere afterthought to the Japanese companies.

I never said that it was made for American fans. Kakarot88 did. I said it was made for DBZ's birthday or something like that. I was correct...since you said 20th Anniversary.

[Kakarot88]

NO! Kai is a product made for people like you who disliked the american Z.

No. Kai was made to celebrate the 20th Anniversary of the original DBZ TV series in Japan. It was also made as experiment by Toei to test the waters and rejuvenate the DBZ money train/merchandising craze they were experiencing years prior. The primary audience has always been and will continue to be the Japanese market.

The fact that we got it dubbed/released internationally a year or two later is a mere afterthought to the Japanese companies.

Luckily for the English-speaking market, FUNImation ultimately decided to do an accurate redub...

duh, I was referring to the English release lol

See my response comment and the topic thread title

[TheGmGoken]

duh, I was referring to the English release lol

It got dubbed. Because it can make money. Also originally it was just going to be similar to the dub. Sean and Sabat fought for it to be accurate. So it was NOT dub because of people "Hating" the usa dub.

[ABED]

I can acknowledge nostalgia as a factor in my enjoyment but it doesn't blind me to something's faults. It's simply that the positives need to outweigh the negatives. DBZ's dub has a place in my heart because I look back on my enthusiasm for the show fondly and there was a joy in seeing what came next since I hadn't seen the whole show multiple times. However, the acting was often bad and I never liked the music from Faulconer with the exception of a few cues.

Why do so many American fans dislike Kai? It's simply not what they grew up with.

Pft, we don't make fun of Z because it isn't any good.

We love DragonBall Z! We just know that what we love also has some flaws. The filler is pretty awful and the Z dub is pretty... not good. The Kai dub is ridiculously better. The entire team shares that belief.

There's a difference between acknowledging flaws and making fun of a show in and of itself. You may not see Abridged as such, but I do.

[Kakarot88]

Sean and Sabat fought for it to be accurate. So it was NOT dub because of people "Hating" the usa dub.

You do realize Kai is not even what Kai was supposed to be since the musical score was replaced? You act as if this new found accuracy was anything more than just marketing. if they wanted to be true to "Kai" then they'd have used a new composer to make something like Kai was supposed to be

[TheGmGoken]

Sean and Sabat fought for it to be accurate. So it was NOT dub because of people "Hating" the usa dub.

You do realize Kai is not even what Kai was supposed to be since the musical score was replaced? You act as if this new found accuracy was anything more than just marketing. if they wanted to be true to "Kai" then they'd have used a new composer to make something like Kai was supposed to be

I'm acting? Acting? How am I'm acting? Sabat and Sean FOUGHT for Kai to be accurate and always wanted to do an accurate dub. So no it was not just marketing. Why would they replace Kai's replacement score? They wanted to be loyal to the JPN. So they even used the replacement score that the JPB used.

[Kakarot88]

Again Kai is a bastardized product of its original form. "Fighting for a more accurate dub" is a great way to hype it for fans like yourself and explain the differences for disliking the new script. I like the acurate dialogue, just not all the subdued performances, it's boring, I don't read the manga like that and the Japanese dub is way way way more hyped up.

Regardless, I find it incredulous at best to say that doing "a more accurate translation" is harder and more expensive than changing it like the American Z did first go round. As such "do I buy that they fought for changes?" No, but it sounds good when they say it The dialogue is literally the subtiles of Z which comes from the manga...duh. Using an accurate script is easier than doing what they did the first go round as they have ample pre translated material at their disposal lol. But believe what you'd like.

Please don't forget though "Kai" is not even in Japan or US what "Kai" was supposed to be as the new revamped music was stripped from the product.

SO back to on topic Kai was supposed to have newer music, it doesn't, the lack of newer music is why many US fans dislike it.

[KaiserNeko]

Again Kai is a bastardized product of its original form. "Fighting for a more accurate dub" is a great way to hype it for fans like yourself and explain the differences for disliking the new script. I like the acurate dialogue, just not all the subdued performances, it's boring, I don't read the manga like that and the Japanese dub is way way way more hyped up.

Regardless, I find it incredulous at best to say that doing "a more accurate translation" is harder and more expensive than changing it like the American Z did first go round. As such "do I buy that they fought for changes?" No, but it sounds good when they say it The dialogue is literally the subtiles of Z which comes from the manga...duh. Using an accurate script is easier than doing what they did the first go round as they have ample pre translated material at their disposal lol. But believe what you'd like.

Please don't forget though "Kai" is not even in Japan or US what "Kai" was supposed to be as the new revamped music was stripped from the product.

SO back to on topic Kai was supposed to have newer music, it doesn't, the lack of newer music is why many US fans dislike it.

Wha-- YES THEY FOUGHT FOR CHANGES. They certainly did fight for them, because for over a DECADE their dub was "Americanized" and altered consistently. They had to fight to break away from this manner of handling the series because of how well their treatment of it had worked during it's use.

Not to mention, you can't just read the subtitles then write down the script. You have to do all manners of adaptation when it comes to scripting a series in English that was originally in another language. It's hard either way.

There's a difference between acknowledging flaws and making fun of a show in and of itself. You may not see Abridged as such, but I do.

Well, sure, we are definitely making fun of the show. But not because we dislike it. We love the show; it's just got a lot to make fun of/have fun with.

To be fair, I not even sure what argument you're trying to make with me. I never said we weren't making fun of the series, only that we weren't doing it because we dislike it. As well, even some of the things we make fun of or make jokes of are still things we like; it's just fun to play with them.

[Kakarot88]

KaiserNeko
Having never worked on an animated series, unlike yourself, I'll have to take your word for it bring more difficult using an already translated script than making up a new one, I'm not being sarcastic. Having met Sean Schemmel and hearing him and Sabat rip on the music yeah I have a hard time drinking the koolaid that these dudes are die hard purists as they think their acting in Kai better but the music and its placement are poor. Check out the stuff from Animazement where he talks about how they all made fun of the music during their dubbing of the upcoming boo arc

[KaiserNeko]

KaiserNeko
Having never worked on an animated series, unlike yourself, I'll have to take your word for it bring more difficult using an already translated script than making up a new one, I'm not being sarcastic. Having met Sean Schemmel and hearing him and Sabat rip on the music yeah I have a hard time drinking the koolaid that these dudes are die hard purists as they think their acting in Kai better but the music and its placement are poor. Check out the stuff from Animazement where he talks about how they all made fun of the music during their dubbing of the upcoming boo arc

I told you: Just because the script is -translated- does not mean it's useable. You have to ADAPT it to match the lip-flaps while retaining flow, change certain idioms/in-jokes to match something more culturally accessible, account for rhythm, tone. As someone who has worked WITH people in the industry (and has also had to do his own adaptations of scripts to match scenes for amateur products) I can assure you it is a careful, painstaking process to get it done -right-. Considering how many people believe the original dub did not get it done right, it's possible to consider that, in fact, the original dubbing process might in fact have been easier; it was streamlined and thus filled with bad jokes and awkward lines.

As far as the music goes, are you talking about the music in the upcoming Boo arc? Because none of us have even HEARD the music for that. It very well could be bad! You don't know! No one here knows! And the music and placement in Kai post-Yamamoto has been a point of contention for EVERYONE, purists and non-purists alike, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

[Kakarot88]

Also, "drinking the kool-aid?" Your condescending tone and word choice is both insulting and rude. I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation about this topic and you've been nothing but patronizing and presumptuous.

I seriously do apologize that's not my intent. I did not mean to stifle the conversation. My own personal feelings are that Kai is overrated for what it is. It is a project that has been chopped up in Japan and repackaged in America adhering to allegedly a more accurate representation of the manga. Not starting a flame war this is my subjective feelings on a series I love. I find the words to fit the bill. period. However, the presentation of the words, the acting, is not as intense and compelling as Z in the Americanized version nor as beutiful and intense as the original Japanese. I love the Japanese version of Z for its portrayal of the characters, and find Kai to miss the mark. Y'all and the actors think the acting is superior, but I do not because I find it to be without the intensity that the manga and Japanese anime exude.

I said "drinking the koolaid" because I too was on the Kai bandwagon! I was watching it and thinking this is incredible, music is a bit rough (I hate the funi dub with Japanese music too so that's my preference I only like the Japanese cast with the Japanese music) but nonetheless awesome. And then I popped in the hated 3rd season for the orange bricks and decided I'd watch some of it, particularly when Goku went Super Saiyan for the first time. I was shocked! I preferred the old Z over Kai (not the Japanese version of Z that is obviously king over all ), not for nostalgia but because I actually felt like Goku was pissed when I watched it, not that he was acting. So for me, I find Kai not that big of an improvement the only thing I have found to be better is the lines themselves but the delivery feels less real. Masako Nozawa exudes Goku, and I don't have that same feelings for Sean when I watch Kai, and I love Sean. I met him we took pics together he's awesome, but that's part of the reason I chose my avatar with Nozawa over my pic with him, because of what Kai has done for me to the character.

With all due respect, and I sincerely mean that, I do not see how you can say that they got the rythm better in Kai. More often than not the lines, becuase of their accuracy, no longer sync up with mouth. Music and the pacing feels less like an intense drama and more like a cartoon.

Again I apologize for offending you that is never good for conversation.

[ABED]

There's a difference between acknowledging flaws and making fun of a show in and of itself. You may not see Abridged as such, but I do.

Well, sure, we are definitely making fun of the show. But not because we dislike it. We love the show; it's just got a lot to make fun of/have fun with.

To be fair, I not even sure what argument you're trying to make with me. I never said we weren't making fun of the series, only that we weren't doing it because we dislike it. As well, even some of the things we make fun of or make jokes of are still things we like; it's just fun to play with them.

I meant there's a difference between making fun of something you like and making fun of its flaws. If my friend is clumsy, I don't make fun of him, I make fun of the clumsiness. The latter undercuts a fault, the former undercuts a value.

With all due respect, and I sincerely mean that, I do not see how you can say that they got the rythm better in Kai. More often than not the lines, becuase of their accuracy, no longer sync up with mouth. Music and the pacing feels less like an intense drama and more like a cartoon.

Kakarot, there's a difference between subdued and subtle. There's still more than enough big acting in Kai's dub.

As for the mouth flaps, Kai still does a good job with them but they aren't dogmatic about it to the point where the natural flow is ruined for the sake matching a mouth flap. We disagree about the music. I never got "intense drama" from Faulconer, and DBZ's pacing doesn't scream intense drama either.

[KaiserNeko]

I meant there's a difference between making fun of something you like and making fun of its flaws. If my friend is clumsy, I don't make fun of him, I make fun of the clumsiness. The latter undercuts a fault, the former undercuts a value.

... I suppose you're right, but... what's the argument necessarily you're making with me? If there is one.

[ABED]

I meant there's a difference between making fun of something you like and making fun of its flaws. If my friend is clumsy, I don't make fun of him, I make fun of the clumsiness. The latter undercuts a fault, the former undercuts a value.

... I suppose you're right, but... what's the argument necessarily you're making with me? If there is one.

I assumed you'd infer it. If I remember correctly, you work on DBZ Abridged. If that's the case, the fact that I see it as something that makes fun of the show, not merely its faults is the reason I dislike it. Plus, I don't find it funny, however, that's a matter of taste.

[KaiserNeko]

I meant there's a difference between making fun of something you like and making fun of its flaws. If my friend is clumsy, I don't make fun of him, I make fun of the clumsiness. The latter undercuts a fault, the former undercuts a value.

... I suppose you're right, but... what's the argument necessarily you're making with me? If there is one.

I assumed you'd infer it. If I remember correctly, you work on DBZ Abridged. If that's the case, the fact that I see it as something that makes fun of the show, not merely its faults is the reason I dislike it. Plus, I don't find it funny, however, that's a matter of taste.

Oh. Well, uh... sorry you dislike it, but it's not like we're trying to DEVALUE the show. We definitely support it, whole heartedly. We just wanted to make a comedy out of it, plus homage plenty of our favorite moments. It's all about taking the piss out of something we love. We're not sitting back and saying, "Look at this stupid show; let's make fun of it!" We're saying, "God, DragonBall Z was one of our favorite shows. Let's make parody dub with it!"

[TheGmGoken]

.....I don't see the argument here...

[TheGmGoken]

Again Kai is a bastardized product of its original form. "Fighting for a more accurate dub" is a great way to hype it for fans like yourself and explain the differences for disliking the new script. I like the acurate dialogue, just not all the subdued performances, it's boring, I don't read the manga like that and the Japanese dub is way way way more hyped up.

Regardless, I find it incredulous at best to say that doing "a more accurate translation" is harder and more expensive than changing it like the American Z did first go round. As such "do I buy that they fought for changes?" No, but it sounds good when they say it The dialogue is literally the subtiles of Z which comes from the manga...duh. Using an accurate script is easier than doing what they did the first go round as they have ample pre translated material at their disposal lol. But believe what you'd like.

Please don't forget though "Kai" is not even in Japan or US what "Kai" was supposed to be as the new revamped music was stripped from the product.

SO back to on topic Kai was supposed to have newer music, it doesn't, the lack of newer music is why many US fans dislike it.

The lack of new music? I know you mean the replacement score. But trust me. That is not the reason. Many have nostalgia. Hell. A LOT of people never even heard the original OST and only heard Bruce. So it's new music to them. Also do you know how voice acting works? Even if the script is accurate it's hard. They just don't just watch some subtitles and just read off of that. Also I know Kai isn't Japan. I said it was made in Japan which was a responds to you saying Kai was made for people who dislike USA dub.

the acting, is not as intense and compelling as Z in the Americanized version

Respect your opinion on that. Though I greatly disagree.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Because most of the american fanbase is just plain stupid. Seriously, they can't remove the nostalgia goggles for one second, it's pathetic . Now I can understand not caring for it based on the fact that the fights can appear quite choppy at times, but no one even complains about that.

[TheGmGoken]

Because most of the american fanbase is just plain stupid. Seriously, they can't remove the nostalgia goggles for one second, it's pathetic . Now I can understand not caring for it based on the fact that the fights can appear quite choppy at times, but no one even complains about that.

Complains I see are.

No Bruce
The voice actors are not as good as they used to be,
Gohan
EVERY character having a new voice even though it's false. Don't see how You can't tell that it's still Sean playing Goku. I mean the video games have Goku sounding the same.
No Bruce.
SOME fans don't think Funimation dubbed Kai
No Bruce.
No over 9000
No Bruce.
Some people claiming that the english dub is the original audio.
Did I mention no Bruce?

[bkev]

I do not see how you can say that they got the rythm better in Kai. More often than not the lines, becuase of their accuracy, no longer sync up with mouth.

OK, I won't necessarily agree with the part about the mouthflaps but I must say Kai's dialogue has always felt a little stilted to me. It's not enough so that I dislike it immensely, but it could have used more adaptation IMO.