"(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I keep saying this, but Beerus is not the strongest in Z (Whis is) and whatever source claims that is outright wrong and untrustworthy.

Beers was never stated to be weaker than he was supposed to, and Whis strength was a mystery at that time. Once we learned how strong Whis was, and once Super Saiyan God Goku was created, we learned that those 3 are the 3 strongest beings in DBZ (with Whis > Beers > SSG Goku).

So how does that invalidate the fact that the statement of Beerus being the strongest is invalid and untrustworthy?

Beers was the strongest in DBZ from the information we had at that point. We knew already that Super Vegetto was the strongest in DBZ. Then we learn that Beers is the strongest in DBZ now, so Beers > Super Vegetto > Everyone. Then, we also have Goku saying that he never imagined such a realm* existed after he became the Super Saiyan God, so it's most likely, Beers > God Goku > Super Vegetto > Everyone. And then we learn that the mysterious guy Whis is actually even stronger than Beers. So, Whis > Beers > God Goku > Super Vegetto > Everyone.

*About the "realm":

Spoiler:

the word here, sekai, means "world" or "realm" and is presumably being used metaphorically to mean a general level of power. For instance, during the Cell arc Trunks tells Kuririn about how Vegeta got super strong training in the RoSaT, but one day Trunks surpassed that "realm" by reaching the form we now call Super Saiyan Grade III. In the film, "realm" pops up again later when Beers says Goku has absorbed SSG's "realm" into his body, but more on that later. Goku's surprise at the "realm" of SSG could be taken to mean it's stronger than Vegetto (and any other form Goku's ever reached before), but maybe he's surprised that he got this strong without using a form of fusion. This is also the same movie where Mister Satan has to be told again about how Dende is God of Earth, so arguably Goku going "wow, never knew I could get this strong" isn't too conclusive

Everyone is believing that certain book's old page now. A lot of retcons happened since then. My logic is simple:
End of Z Goku = Bills or maybe even > BIlls. GT Goku > EoZ Goku because he can turn SSJ4, thus he's above Bills and Whis.

We can assume that End of Z Goku has fought Bills or any other gods again (Because let's admit it, if they made another movie, it would still be pre-Uub/End of Z saga). Goku only grows stronger in this time.

That old scan is irrevelant nowadays. SSJ4 Goku > Super Vegetto. SSJ God was non-existant when they wrote it, but now it changed a lot.

Yeah, I would like to know how Super Vegetto >= SS4 Goku is retconned, or how it is irrelevant. Is there new evidence that show otherwise? Because the manga, the anime, and most of the franchise in general is older that this "old scan".

[hulkty]

Still find it funny that Toriyama made a homosexual the strongest being in DBZ history.

[miguelnuva1]

My suggestion was to simply use SSJG as the fifth SSJ transformation because in a way that is what it is.

It's one thing to say that a "SSJ5 is way to hyped to ever be in a game", or to say that they wont introduce a new transformation never before seen in a game, but the fact of the matter is that Super Saiyan God is not SSJ5. SSG is never referred to as a SSJ5. SSJ5 does not exist in any form of db video game, manga, or anime, outside of fan made stuff. SSG is a form recognized throughout DB media.SSJ5 is not. It doesn't matter if you want to make some connection, the fact of the matter is that it is not SSJ5.the only reference to a ssj5 was what, a dub quote from GT? And people who believe that SSJ4 Gogetas alt with silver hair was a nod to all of those AF SSJ5 pics?


There is really nothing to it, it's that simple. He's talking about the hypothetical chance of (fan made)SSJ5 being in a game. Your talking about SSG, which has jack to do with anything. Why should people start referring SSG as SSJ5, if it factually is not the case even in the movie? It's just plain wrong because not even the people who wrote the movie or introduced the form, refer it as such. Bills talks about Goku becoming a God, and other characters refer to him as such. Not SSJ4, let alone SSJ5.

All these are more or less characteristics of a SSJ5 and instead of the form being introduced and then fans complain that it doesn't look right

Some fans claim that they were unimpressed with SSG in the movie, or that it just looks like his base form with red hair and a new aura. There will always be fan complaints for each form.

Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying start calling SSJG SSJ5 I'm saying there would be no need to create a SSJ5 as there is SSJG. Instead of SSJ5 Goku and SSJ5 Vegeta just make SSJG Vegeta and SSJG Gohan for example.

No where am I saying that SSJG is a numbered form after SSJ4 I'm just saying it is the 5th new SSJ level that we have seen introduced.

Also unlike SSJG, SSJ5 has a universally fan design of the silver hair and a golden SSJ4 might be expected if it was ever official but I just see SSJ5 getting a huge amount of backlash if it wasn't drawn right because SSJ5 belongs to the fans in a way. I wouldn't want to see a SSJ5 with no eyebrows, red ssj3 hair and brown fur for example and I wouldn't want to see Xicor that wasn't a god or wasn't Goku's son for example.

Once again I'm not saying that SSJG is SSJ5 just that in a way it is the firth ssj transformation we have seen, it's not a powered up form of an existing ssj like the ascended forms and it's not a exclusive form like LSSJ which is Broly only is what I mean when I say it's like a SSJ5. Vegeta pretty much guarantees he will transform next time and there is no reason to think Gohan could transform either.

[Hellspawn28]

If we do get a SSj5 then I hope for a new original desgin then a design inspire by old fan art.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Still find it funny that Toriyama made a homosexual the strongest being in DBZ history.

Whis is feminine, but not necessarily homosexual. He looks like a Shinian, so he is probably asexual.

[DNA]

Still find it funny that Toriyama made a homosexual the strongest being in DBZ history. :lol:

I don't see how this is funny.

Whis is feminine, but not necessarily homosexual. He looks like a Shinian, so he is probably asexual.

True, I think there are plenty asexual characters in the franchise. I still defend that the Freeza Clan is asexual and they reproduce by some kind of mitosis or something. They all seem to belong to one single family line, their numbers quite few, displaying traits we (humans) would commonly associate with both genders. We've seen 8 of them, all similar, none described as flat-out female.

[miguelnuva1]

Whis is feminine, but not necessarily homosexual. He looks like a Shinian, so he is probably asexual.

True, I think there are plenty asexual characters in the franchise. I still defend that the Freeza Clan is asexual and they reproduce by some kind of mitosis or something. They all seem to belong to one single family line, their numbers quite few, displaying traits we (humans) would commonly associate with both genders. We've seen 8 of them, all similar, none described as flat-out female.

Doesn't Frieza say his parents in the manga?

[hleV]

Beers was the strongest in DBZ from the information we had at that point.

Because stating that Beerus is the strongest when Whis is standing right fucking next to him is totally legit. Sorry, but I cannot accept such weird logic. It'd be like stating that Ginyu is the strongest when Freeza is standing next to him. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that Beerus was being built up as a really strong guy, but the statement is outright wrong and you cannot do anything about it. Are outright wrong statements to be trusted? Not in my book. (Also correct me if I'm wrong, but such statement never came from Toriyama himself.) So I disregard it completely and am left with only the realm thing which may or may not mean that Beerus & Whis are the strongest in Z.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Whis was standing next to him, and he was called as a mystery guy. We learned from that statement that Beers was stronger than Super Vegetto, and then we learned in the movie that the mystery guy Whis was even stronger. We never learned that Beers was weaker than he was supposed to be.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but such statement never came from Toriyama himself.

Besides, the whole project was approved by Toriyama, and this statement is part of the project.

So I disregard it completely and am left with only the realm thing which may or may not mean that Beerus & Whis are the strongest in Z.

Checking the movie again, I didn't see in the subs Goku saying that he never imagined this realm, but he says that he is shocked & that this is a realm/world that he couldn't reach by himself. So, he seems to be talking about power (he is disappointed that he is so strong because he had to borrow others' powers), but it doesn't seem to be talking about power.

But still, it's illogical for Super Vegetto to be above God Goku. Super Vegetto is a product of gods, the combination of 2 Super Saiyans, and he is in Super Saiyan, while God Goku is a god himself, the combination of 5 Super Saiyans, and he is using a form beyond Super Saiyan 3.

[DNA]

Doesn't Freeza say his parents in the manga?

As I understand, it's hard to distinguish a plural in Japanese, so the same word can be interpreted as either parent or parents. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Super Saiyan God Goku was created when five Super Saiyans shared some of their power to him, he ascended to a new form, powered by God Power.
Vegetto is the combination of two rival Saiyans, his power is said to be above the multiplication of Vegeta and Goku's power.

It's not illogical to assume Vegetto might be stronger in terms of raw Ki Power and possibly even a fair bit of God Power. After all, he did trample a being which absorbed Trunks and Goten, Ultimate Gohan, who is said to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, and Piccolo who is more powerful than a Super Saiyan, the same being who by itself was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
So, recap, Ultimate Majin Buu has at least the power of two Super Saiyan 3 plus 3 Super Saiyan 1's, Vegetto, in Super Saiyan state was so much stronger than him that Ultimate Buu couldn't even scratch him.

Once again, you are arguing how two different kinds of power measure against each other, there is no real point of comparison. It is quite possible that Super Saiyan God Goku would lose against Majin Buu, since Majin Buu was created specifically to kill gods.
Bills defeats Super Saiyan 3 Goku, not because he's stronger, but because his God Power allows him to. And if you bring Mister Buu into the equation, don't forget that Mister Buu is simply Dai Kaioshin in Buu form, everything that Buu was, was defeated by Goku and reincarnated into Uub. Mister Buu is more God than Anti-God, hence why Bills surpasses and outranks him.

[hleV]

We learned from that statement that Beers was stronger than Super Vegetto

And Whis.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We learned from that statement that Beers was stronger than Super Vegetto

And Whis.

Not necessarily, because we didn't know yet anything about him, he was a mystery guy. Besides, Beers was stated to the strongest in the history of Z, and BoG wasn't part of the history at the point this statement was made, since the movie wasn't released yet.

DNA, Beers is directly stated to be stronger than Boo (in general) and Boo wasn't made to kill gods, he was accidentally created. And also, the only difference between normal and godly ki is that godly ki can't be sensed by mortals. And God Goku doesn't have some of their power, before adding Videl on the mix, they had given him almost all of their power. And Vegetto is only stated to be many times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, with the Potara working more like a multiplication rather than addition, while Boo's absorption seems to be working as an addition.

[DNA]

DNA, Beers is directly stated to be stronger than Boo (in general) and Boo wasn't made to kill gods, he was accidentally created.

Bibidi was trying to create something, he was obviously trying to create a weapon of galactic domination, he also knew about the existence of the Kaioshins, so it is more than logical to assume he tried to create a weapon that could kill gods. The fact that he came out as he did was the accident. Think Powerpuff Girls, Professor Utonium was trying to create the perfect little girls, the fact that they came out super-powered was an accident.

And also, the only difference between normal and godly ki is that godly ki can't be sensed by mortals.

Based on what exactly? From what we've been presented so far, it is safe to assume God Power does not work as normal Ki Power does, based on what gods have been shown to be able to do in the franchise. East Kaioshin was rather weak when we actually saw him in action, Piccolo could probably surpass him in terms of Ki Power, but he did not dare oppose him because East Kaioshin not only outranks him but his God Power must have been far superior to Piccolo's. I'm assuming Piccolo has some God Power since part of him used to be Kami.

And God Goku doesn't have some of their power, before adding Videl on the mix, they had given him almost all of their power. And Vegetto is only stated to be many times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, with the Potara working more like a multiplication rather than addition, while Boo's absorption seems to be working as an addition.

How does this show that Super Saiyan God Goku surpasses Vegetto?

[VegettoEX]

There are plenty of more-appropriate threads for these types of strength comparisons, in-universe discussions, etc. Please bring this particular, long-running topic back to the subject at hands: Dragon Ball Heroes. Thank you!

[gokugambitoptimus]

Only for resume the main theme

My list of characters for the evil dragons debut:
Syn Shenron with the ability to transform in Omega Shenron
Nuova Shenron withe the ability to transform in the golden form
Oceanus Shenron with the ability to transform in her true form
Rage Shenron with the ability to transform in his giant form
Naturon Shenron withe ability to transform in the form with Pan asorbed
Eis Shenron
Haze Shenron

[DNA]

So you just listed everyone and their forms. What was the point of that?

[JeffJarrett]

So you just listed everyone and their forms. What was the point of that?

He didn't list Naturon Sheron's Mole form, and Eis Shenron's transformation.

[DNA]

So you just listed everyone and their forms. What was the point of that?

He didn't list Naturon Sheron's Mole form, and Eis Shenron's transformation.

Ah you're correct, well that changes everything. Thank you so much for that pedantic comment.

[gokugambitoptimus]

I only wanted to end the offtopic of the SSJ5

[DNA]

We can always patiently wait until we have some actual news. This topic has been known to have several downtimes, sometimes whole weeks going past, there is nothing wrong with that.