How powerful are the humans in the Android arc?

[Victorious]

Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan all trained for 3 years, so how strong are they?

Iv'e seen different logic applied.

They have always been weaker than the base Saiyans in Z, generally far far inferior to base Goku and base Vegeta so some people think this consistency should still hold up and thus they would be hundreds of times weaker than the Super Saiyans [so long as you believe the SSJ boost is still 50x]. I tend to agree with this logic most.

There's other that take word in what Dr. Gero said, he believed if he absorbed Krillin, base Gohan, and Tenshinhan he'd surpass SSJ Vegeta. This he said after he absorbed Suppressed Piccolo's ki. So he litterally though he'd go from being fodder to full power Piccolo to surpassing SSJ Vegeta with just Krillin, Tien, and base Gohan's ki. This would imply that the humans are all far superior to the base Saiyans now by this point unless you think the SSJ boost went from 50x to about 5x. So we're talking about each of the humans being in the 10-20's of millions or something.

[Godo]

Personally I believe that there is a difference between effective power (max output) level and the actual power you have.
As an example, if Kuririn's effective power level is 1,500, he could still hold 5,000 in reserves.

This is shown initially when Goku fires a Super Kamehameha against Piccolo but still isn't tired in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
They know of his power, they can all sense it, but they can't sense his reserves.
By the time of the Saiya-jin Arc the humans have trained and increased their reserves as well.
This is shown when they release ki attacks and aren't winded.

So, the humans could be under the 10's of millions and still have huge reserves.

About the range of their power, I don't think that it is easy to know, really, since they do not participate much in the fights.
They do participate in the fight against C18 and C17, but everyone but Vegeta are pretty much defeated in an equal manner.

[ZombieVito]

I have them at:

Krillin: 3,500,000

Tien: 2,800,000

Yamcha: 2,000,000

Chaoz: 400,000

Yajirobe: 1,200

[Super Vegetto]

Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan all trained for 3 years, so how strong are they?

Iv'e seen different logic applied.

They have always been weaker than the base Saiyans in Z, generally far far inferior to base Goku and base Vegeta so some people think this consistency should still hold up and thus they would be hundreds of times weaker than the Super Saiyans [so long as you believe the SSJ boost is still 50x]. I tend to agree with this logic most.

There's other that take word in what Dr. Gero said, he believed if he absorbed Krillin, base Gohan, and Tenshinhan he'd surpass SSJ Vegeta. This he said after he absorbed Suppressed Piccolo's ki. So he litterally though he'd go from being fodder to full power Piccolo to surpassing SSJ Vegeta with just Krillin, Tenshinhan, and base Gohan's ki. This would imply that the humans are all far superior to the base Saiyans now by this point unless you think the SSJ boost went from 50x to about 5x. So we're talking about each of the humans being in the 10-20's of millions or something.

Dr. Gero never calculated right so we can't take this quote seriously at all. Humans are suposed to be weaker than Base Saiyans by wide gap, going by logic.

I don't think that any of them is suposed to surpass Frieza's Base power, but i don't have problem with that. It would be less belivable if they managed to surpass 50% Frieza because that is just too much imo...

[Godo]

I have them at:

Krillin: 3,500,000

Tenshinhan: 2,800,000

Yamcha: 2,000,000

Chaoz: 400,000

Yajirobe: 1,200

Please elaborate by which standards you have crafted those numbers.

Humans are suposed to be weaker than Base Saiyans by wide gap, going by logic.

I don't think that any of them is suposed to surpass Freeza's Base power, but i don't have problem with that. It would be less belivable if they managed to surpass 50% Freeza because that is just too much imo...

Please elaborate by what logic.

[RandomGuy96]

They are weaker than the base saiyans. That isn't just an opinion, it's a fact. Gero said as much, AND Vegeta easily blew up the gate that Krillin and Ten couldn't.

However, Gero, who does have a built in scouter, said he could get some energy from them, and even considered Yamcha a decent source of it. I figure they must at least be in the millions to even show up on his radar. Also, the training they did was implied to give Piccolo mega haxxed gains in a week. They were there a long time....

My estimates in the Android arc:

Vegeta- 5,000,000
Piccolo (suppressed): 4,000,000
Gohan- 3,600,000
Krillin- 3,500,000
Tenshinhan- 2,500,000
Yamcha- 2,000,000
Chiaotzu- 800,000

[dbzfan7]

I have a hard time seeing them being above first form Freeza. At most maybe a million to make sense with Gero's statement maybe.

[Nazi Cola]

There's no need to have them too high. Their role was for support, not to fight like Goku or Piccolo. Yamcha showed up because he didn't believe the androids were real and Krillin went to support his friends, even showing clear uneasiness at the thought of fighting guys stronger than Freeza ("We're not all Super Saiyans, you know!"); Tenshinhan is the only one that can be argued as having any sort of confidence, but that's part of his character and since we know he's weaker than Krillin, he also can't logically be too strong either.

Besides, Gero said absorbing the humans' power would allow him to win against Vegeta, not surpass him. There's a difference when you consider the android's ability to absorb ki.

[Pantalones]

Way, way stronger than majority opinion on this board tended to put them at the last time I checked (the "I can't ever see them getting stronger than Guldo Ginyu" sort of thing.) Probably into the low single-digit millions at least.

But still a lot weaker than any Android, including #19 and #20.

There's no way to really get a solid idea of their power levels at this point, since they never really have a "normal" fight that's really useful in comparing them to anyone else. We know Yamcha was mistaken for (base) Goku by Dr. Gero's sensors at first, but he was still too weak to have a chance against Gero (much like any base Saiyan would be at this point--#19 and #20 are way too weak to beat the Super Saiyans, at least without absorbing a few good blasts first, but also way too strong for the base Saiyans to handle.) That really doesn't narrow it down much, though, since Gero never really commented much on the base Saiyans being beyond his expectations; it was only Super Saiyan that was completely unexpected. Yamcha could very well be near the base Saiyans at this point. Or he could be back where the base Saiyans were when they left Namek. Or he could only be around 1 million. As long as his energy's enough to be more than a drop in a bucket to Gero (in other words: it has to be in the very low millions, at least--somebody in the tens of millions is not going to see a mere 70,000 as a really significant gain, he'd probably get a much bigger boost than that just by going around draining random humans Cell-style), but still not enough to put up a fight against Gero, any number could work.

It's safe to assume that both Krillin and Tenshinhan are a good bit stronger than Yamcha, no matter which of them you think is stronger. But I'm guessing neither of them would've put up too much of a fight against #20 either (assuming Krillin didn't slice him in half with a Kienzan, or Tenshinhan didn't Shin Kikoho him to bits), so they're definitely well below the "midpoint between base and Super Saiyan" level that those two androids seem to be. It seems to me that it'd make sense for them to be at end-of-Namek base Saiyan levels if Yamcha is hovering down at the lowest edges of the millions, or closer to current base Saiyan levels if Yamcha is closer to end-of-Namek base Saiyan levels. Maximum still-making-any-sense point for the two stronger humans, based on what's shown in the Bojack movie, would probably be somewhere around Cell Games base Trunks... wherever that is. Though whether that really works outside of the Bojack movie depends on just how drastically you have powers increasing between #19/#20's arrival and the start of the Cell Games; if you have all of your Cell Games base Saiyans surpassing 50% Freeza or something already, then the humans being equal to them probably doesn't work. As long as you remember that "small boost in base = 50x bigger boost in Super Saiyan" and manage to keep the power inflation from going out of control, though, I can see levels like that working fairly well. Base Saiyans are basically irrelevant from this point on, so it's not like the humans being of a similar level is going to change the "Saiyans are always the strongest, and then Piccolo, with the humans having some useful tricks but less raw power" dynamic at all. Especially since the Saiyans and Piccolo all get huge boosts through the Androids/Cell saga while the humans stay the same...

[Zephyr]

Besides, Gero said absorbing the humans' power would allow him to win against Vegeta, not surpass him. There's a difference when you consider the android's ability to absorb ki.

He also thought he would have been able to defeat Piccolo after absorbing his ki.

Gero doesn't seem to understand fully how the Z senshi's ki actually works with his technology.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that Kuririn is slightly weaker than Freeza arc Goku, with Yamcha above 2nd Form Freeza, and Tenshinhan at 3rd Form Freeza level. Chaozu is far below First Form Freeza though.

[Blade]

It's debatable if Krillin had surpassed Tien or not by the time of the Android's arrival, but that's a whole separate argument which has been repeated time and time again, the result of which is dependent on whether one follows the 'strongest human' description of Krillin and even considers Tien as a human to begin with.

I personally would put them in the ballpark regions of:

Tien: Circa 500,000 (give or take). I don't see how he could come close to Namek-saga Piccolo, who was stronger to begin with and gained the majority of his power through merging with Nail.
Krillin: Circa 500,000 (give or take). His power-ups on Namek made him stronger, but he never received any training from King Kai.
Yamcha: Circa 100,000 (at best) - He received training from King Kai, but he's a slacker. It's even unrealistic to assume he could have become so powerful from King Kai's training alone, as it would suggest that he benefited significantly more from the training than Goku - which seems proposterous.
Chaotzu: Circa 20,000. But it even takes a leap of imagination to explain how he could have become so much stronger than Nappa following his training with King Kai.

[Super Vegetto]

It's debatable if Krillin had surpassed Tenshinhan or not by the time of the Android's arrival, but that's a whole separate argument which has been repeated time and time again, the result of which is dependent on whether one follows the 'strongest human' description of Krillin and even considers Tenshinhan as a human to begin with.

I personally would put them in the ballpark regions of:

Tenshinhan: Circa 500,000 (give or take). I don't see how he could come close to Namek-saga Piccolo, who was stronger to begin with and gained the majority of his power through merging with Nail.
Krillin: Circa 500,000 (give or take). His power-ups on Namek made him stronger, but he never received any training from King Kai.
Yamcha: Circa 100,000 (at best) - He received training from King Kai, but he's a slacker. It's even unrealistic to assume he could have become so powerful from King Kai's training alone, as it would suggest that he benefited significantly more from the training than Goku - which seems proposterous.
Chaotzu: Circa 20,000. But it even takes a leap of imagination to explain how he could have become so much stronger than Nappa following his training with King Kai.

He surpassed him in Frieza saga and it stayed that way until the end.

It's already mentioned by Yamcha (Boo saga) and AT (Battle of Gods interview) that Krillin is strongest human, and 3 years before Androids obviously doesn't help Tien to surpass him.

[Blade]

It's debatable if Krillin had surpassed Tenshinhan or not by the time of the Android's arrival, but that's a whole separate argument which has been repeated time and time again, the result of which is dependent on whether one follows the 'strongest human' description of Krillin and even considers Tenshinhan as a human to begin with.

I personally would put them in the ballpark regions of:

Tenshinhan: Circa 500,000 (give or take). I don't see how he could come close to Namek-saga Piccolo, who was stronger to begin with and gained the majority of his power through merging with Nail.
Krillin: Circa 500,000 (give or take). His power-ups on Namek made him stronger, but he never received any training from King Kai.
Yamcha: Circa 100,000 (at best) - He received training from King Kai, but he's a slacker. It's even unrealistic to assume he could have become so powerful from King Kai's training alone, as it would suggest that he benefited significantly more from the training than Goku - which seems proposterous.
Chaotzu: Circa 20,000. But it even takes a leap of imagination to explain how he could have become so much stronger than Nappa following his training with King Kai.

He surpassed him in Freeza saga and it stayed that way until the end.

It's already mentioned by Yamcha (Boo saga) and AT (Battle of Gods interview) that Krillin is strongest human, and 3 years before Androids obviously doesn't help Tenshinhan to surpass him.

Again, like I said - it's a whole other debate, but it's never directly stated that Krillin is stronger that Tien, only that he's the strongest human. It's debatable if Tien even constitutes as being a human, and on evidence against Cell's 2nd Form and Buutenks Tien appears to be able to achieve significantly more than Krillin would be able to do against either - take for example Krillin's attempt to stall Super Buu.

[Super Vegetto]

It's debatable if Krillin had surpassed Tenshinhan or not by the time of the Android's arrival, but that's a whole separate argument which has been repeated time and time again, the result of which is dependent on whether one follows the 'strongest human' description of Krillin and even considers Tenshinhan as a human to begin with.

I personally would put them in the ballpark regions of:

Tenshinhan: Circa 500,000 (give or take). I don't see how he could come close to Namek-saga Piccolo, who was stronger to begin with and gained the majority of his power through merging with Nail.
Krillin: Circa 500,000 (give or take). His power-ups on Namek made him stronger, but he never received any training from King Kai.
Yamcha: Circa 100,000 (at best) - He received training from King Kai, but he's a slacker. It's even unrealistic to assume he could have become so powerful from King Kai's training alone, as it would suggest that he benefited significantly more from the training than Goku - which seems proposterous.
Chaotzu: Circa 20,000. But it even takes a leap of imagination to explain how he could have become so much stronger than Nappa following his training with King Kai.

He surpassed him in Freeza saga and it stayed that way until the end.

It's already mentioned by Yamcha (Boo saga) and AT (Battle of Gods interview) that Krillin is strongest human, and 3 years before Androids obviously doesn't help Tenshinhan to surpass him.

Again, like I said - it's a whole other debate, but it's never directly stated that Krillin is stronger that Tenshinhan, only that he's the strongest human. It's debatable if Tenshinhan even constitutes as being a human, and on evidence against Cell's 2nd Form and Buutenks Tenshinhan appears to be able to achieve significantly more than Krillin would be able to do against either - take for example Krillin's attempt to stall Super Buu.

Tien is human. He is not complitly human, but the human side is more dominated.

Evidence on Semi Cell is not good evidence. We could say same thing if Krillin used Kienzan on Semi Cell. It's alredy explained how Shin Kikoho is nothing else but force pushing Cell, not destructive energy.

With Buutenks it's same thing. Shin Kikoho deflects Buutenks ki blast. That technique has nothing to do with his power. He and Krillin didn't do any better against Majin boo.

In the end it all comes to AT words in both manga and interview, and we get: Krillin > Tien in power...

[Blade]

Tenshinhan is human. He is not complitly human, but the human side is more dominated.

You mean like Goten, Trunks, Pan and Bra, who were born without tails?

In the end it all comes to AT words in both manga and interview, and we get: Krillin > Tenshinhan in power...

It'd be nice if it was that simple - but it isn't.

If Toriyama came out tomorrow and said that Vegeta was stronger that Gohan at the end of the Buu saga would you agree with that assessment? Battle of Gods seems to reinforce that too - but the original work certainly does not.

Nothing is written in stone - real world statements and off-hand remarks by Akira Toriyama that entirely disregard (or forget) the events in the manga don't suddenly mean that we need to be revisionist when the original work is in total conflict with the new information. These are the grey areas where we, as fans, essentially have to make up our own minds. There is no canon, and in terms of continuity there's certainly no set route of events that exists without contradiction and conflict. I prefer to make my own deductions based on all of the known information and, when a conflict arises, I choose the position that makes the most sense.

[Zephyr]

In regards to the whole "Tenshinhan is a descendant of descendants of aliens" thing from whichever guide book, was that even a thing back when Toriyama wrote "Krillin is the strongest human" into Yamcha's dialog in the Buu arc? If not, then the idea of him being implied to be more powerful than Tenshinhan by Yamcha isn't really influenced by the guidebook statement.

As for Tenshinhan doing what he did against Cell and Buu, I thought that was always more of a testament to his tendency to use life threatening attacks when he needed to.

"What if Toriyama said that Gohan was weaker than Vegeta?" The problem with that comparison is that Gohan vs Vegeta circa the end of the Buu arc isn't an inconclusive debate that could really go either way. It has a clear answer: Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than SSj2 Vegeta. Krillin vs Tenshinhan however is not so cut and dry, and it's really a question of "Did the Namekian Elder's power up or Kaio's training result in a larger increase in power?" A question which has no clear answer. What I'm getting at, is that Toriyama's various implied quips about Krillin being stronger contradicts nothing, while such a quip about SSj2 Vegeta being stronger than Ultimate Gohan would be contradictory.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Krillin: 130,000
Tenshinhan: 104,000
Yamcha: 75,000
Chaozu: 15,000

[Kamiccolo9]

Krillin: 130,000
Tenshinhan: 104,000
Yamcha: 75,000
Chaozu: 15,000

I'd like to second what Godo said above. Can we please provide some justification before throwing out arbitrary numbers? Saying "Krillin's at 130,000" doesn't really invite much discussion.

[Tyro]

Krillin: 130,000
Tenshinhan: 104,000
Yamcha: 75,000
Chaozu: 15,000

I'd like to second what Godo said above. Can we please provide some justification before throwing out arbitrary numbers? Saying "Krillin's at 130,000" doesn't really invite much discussion.

This gets my vote as well. At least tell us how you've arrived at your placement of the characters power-wise, and then maybe your calculations.