Quality of Discussion on Kanzenshuu Going Downhill?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The problem I have with blaming the In-Universe board's fate on power level discussions is that it implies having one giant power discussion heard creates more power level discussions, when power level discussions are such a clear-cut thing that folks who don't care about them aren't going to start no matter how the topic is introduced. Rocketman is right to mention GameFaqs; if you don't like Power Levels, their Dragon Ball board is a bore most of the time. The only way power level discussions can kill a board if no one has anything else to talk about, and if that's the case nothing outside of blanket ban on the topic can do much about it. A simple lack of new discussion ideas makes much more sense to me.

[Rocketman]

The problem I have with blaming the In-Universe board's fate on power level discussions is that it implies having one giant power discussion heard creates more power level discussions, when power level discussions are such a clear-cut thing that folks who don't care about them aren't going to start no matter how the topic is introduced.

It doesn't start power level discussions, no. What it did was set up a big fat WELL COME sign to the dipshits who clog every other DB board on the internet with fakeass made up numbers.

When that god damn thread was started, people wondered if it would even get used because power levels were so rare here. Can you even imagine such glorious days? I doubt it, because now look at this fucking board, you can't squat to take a shit without WELL BY MY CALCULATIONS THAT I MADE UP 3087205087983ur8234r30r302750837483740209r447848469585632859389
65985665459665495655492658561955459625859615784561885618896187789594596548564185265489564654956187616579569856300000096257 SO THERE flooding your ankles!

I'M FUCKING SICK OF IT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE I AM LITERALLY SCREAMING AT MY MOTHERFUCKING LAPTOP RIGHT NOW










alright

i'm alright


breathe


Relax.

[Tyro]

snip

I get that you're trolling, but it's terrible trolling. There's one thread in one subforum about this one specific topic. And it's not even in the in-universe section where those "dipshits" are probably going to look for it in the first place. Do you hate the stickied versus thread too? Because it's basically power levels without the numbers.

[Rocketman]

These are my true feelings on the matter. I am in no way trolling.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I get that you're trolling, but it's terrible trolling. There's one thread in one subforum about this one specific topic. And it's not even in the in-universe section where those "dipshits" are probably going to look for it in the first place. Do you hate the stickied versus thread too? Because it's basically power levels without the numbers.

He isn't trolling. He is talking about threads like "How strong do you think Reacoom is compared to Jheese?", and you see posts "I have Reacoom at 60.000, and Jheese at 50.000.".

[Insertclevername]

I think the idea Rocketman was making was that the thread itself has had an effect on the In-Universe because it attracted people to the forum that he feels only cares about numbers and useless equations.

I mean, I don't know if I would directly blame that one thread in particular but I think power level discussions in general seem to be more and more popular here than the in first six months I joined. I think the main problem with power levels is that they completely consume topics that would've otherwise had nothing to do with them.

I've heard people suggest banning power levels before in the IRC chat and quite honestly, I'm a little torn. While I feel like power level discussions could be alright in the hands of responsible and courteous users and can totally occupy it's own niche in the forum (I mean, with something so trivial as doing page long calculations of utterly useless numbers and equations, it really doesn't deserve to be anything more than a niche thing considering how anal you have to be to put up with that shit), I feel most of the time that doesn't really happen. Perhaps the subject matter is to blame or maybe it's the recent influx of younger, more confrontational users. Whatever the case is, I feel it's a detriment to the forum going experience for me and I'd be interested to see it be banned as a test first, just to see what effects it'd have forum's In-Universe section. Then VegettoEX & Co. could decide what to do from there on out.

Of course this isn't my site so or anything, and whatever decision Mike & Co. make I can only have respect for. However I can't help myself but to be in agreeance with Rocketman. I feel power level, amongst some other complaints that were previously mentioned in this thread really do suck the fun out of going here. And by no means is it terrible here or anything, this place is still loads better than any other Dragon Ball forum by far; it's just it can be so much better.

[Tyro]

He isn't trolling. He is talking about threads like "How strong do you think Reacoom is compared to Jheese?", and you see posts "I have Reacoom at 60.000, and Jheese at 50.000.".

Battle powers would have a fair say in that in my opinion. We know those guys are equal and we know their battle powers are between 30,000 and 60,000. I think that would be totally fair to say. I'm sure people would try to break it down to where those guys fit in that spectrum, but that seems to be more due to the nature of the question than the poster who replies.

To me, there's not much a difference between battle powers and what-if versus situations. If you're comparing two characters on a strength scale, you're comparing their battle powers. Personally I don't won't use numbers that aren't given or can't be derived from given numbers and "official" multipliers, but if a thread involves talking about strength, battle powers are fair play to some extent. It's just that near the end of the series you have to say "X character is stronger than Y character because..." whereas around the Saiyan and Freeza arcs you can more easily get away with saying "X is 40,000 and we know Y > 75,000 therefore..."

Edit: If someone comes into a versus thread and throws out their numbers like they're the end-all-be-all, I would also have a problem with that because that doesn't promote discussion. But battle powers themselves are tied to knowing how strong a character is early in the series. I don't know what kind of discussion you guys would expect if you want to discuss a topic about how strong someone is without going back to stated levels and then work on conjecture from there.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My point (and Rocketman's point as well I guess) is that people just throw some numbers without giving any explanation about it, something that I dislike as well. Personally, I keep my numbers to the sticky thread they belong to, and put my opinions in words, or sometimes in "</=/>" to say what I want more simply if I've written an essay about my point.

[Ringworm128]

Maybe all the power levelers will eventually grow out of it.

I made a list a while back, based on my understanding of PLs through the last two main sagas. Don't worry, I don't have stuff like Kid Buu > Super Buu or SS3 Goku > Mystic Gohan. Anyway, here's what I came up with.

Note: This list takes Namek Base Goku as 300,000, SSJ at 15,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 12,000,000

Trunks Saga

Trunks - 300,000
SSj Trunks - 15,000,000
Goku - 500,000
SSj Goku - 19,000,000
King Kold - 12,000,000

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

A great example of a lack of a quality discussion.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=25074

Seriously, you throw power levels for BOG and GT?

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

A great example of a lack of a quality discussion.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=25074

Seriously, you throw power levels for BOG and GT?

One of the Tweets I saw, which led to the creation of this thread, cited this page as "the worst I've seen on @kanzenshuu"
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... start=4380

I think the only reasonable thing to do here is to blame Kanzentai for this whole mess. Think about it, in 2004-2011 the discussion was great, but when the site became Kanzenshuu in 2012, the quality of discussion began to gradually drop until we arrived at this point here in 2013.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that DBZ lends itself to that type of discussion. By the end, DBZ was about who had access to the most powerful transformation/power-up and thus who was the strongest. If the series had ended after the Freeza arc, we would see very few power level discussions. There just weren't that many power-ups in the first two arcs of the series. But the Cell and especially the Boo arcs introduce so many transformations and power-ups (Super Saiyans, Ascended Super Saiyans, Fusions, Mystics, Absorptions, Majins) for both the main characters and villains that naturally people who love DBZ are going to try to make sense of them. Wasn't that the whole focus of one of the Daizenshuu, to make sense of all the transformations in the series?

[JulieYBM]

The more I read this thread the more I would like to see a lengthy trial run of the banning of these problem topics. It might not help refocus discussion that nobody seems naturally inclined to make, but who knows? Perhaps if we force a little more thought into the creation of a topic we will see some interesting results?

[theawesomepossum777]

The more I read this thread the more I would like to see a lengthy trial run of the banning of these problem topics. It might not help refocus discussion that nobody seems naturally inclined to make, but who knows? Perhaps if we force a little more thought into the creation of a topic we will see some interesting results?

Yeah, I think a dangerous, but great idea, is to pretty much ban power levels/battle powers/ for a month. It could be called "No Scouter Month" or something like that. I mean, scouters ended up being useless when Ginyu was defeated. So why do we act like we have non-faulty scouters for the rest of the series? I don't know how VegettoEX and the moderators can enforce that, but it would bring interesting results as you said. I have a question though. If I wanted to make a topic involving thinking of new powers and techniques for the Dragon Ball franchise, would it count as In-Universe or Fan Created?

[Chuquita]

The more I read this thread the more I would like to see a lengthy trial run of the banning of these problem topics. It might not help refocus discussion that nobody seems naturally inclined to make, but who knows? Perhaps if we force a little more thought into the creation of a topic we will see some interesting results?

Yeah, I think a dangerous, but great idea, is to pretty much ban power levels/battle powers/ for a month. It could be called "No Scouter Month" or something like that. I mean, scouters ended up being useless when Ginyu was defeated. So why do we act like we have non-faulty scouters for the rest of the series? I don't know how VegettoEX and the moderators can enforce that, but it would bring interesting results as you said. I have a question though. If I wanted to make a topic involving thinking of new powers and techniques for the Dragon Ball franchise, would it count as In-Universe or Fan Created?

I'm genuinely curious as to how such an experiment would carry out. I feel it would have the greatest chance of resulting in either:
A) A wider variety of discussion
or
B) Activity on the forums slowing to a crawl

It all depends on if the majority of Kanzenshuu-goers only care for power level discussions or if they have any interest in the franchise beyond that.

[Rocketman]

If they only care about power levels, we are better off without them.

[TheGmGoken]

If they only care about power levels, we are better off without them.

Now I just use a 1 - 10 method. Seriously. I know I'm not Toriyama so I don't know what he's thinking but I think he used a similar system after Power levels were gone so he would't kill himself over math and inconsistent(Powering down. Powering up.). Goku would be 1. Anyone stronger than Goku is 5 - 7. The main villain is 8 - 9. And the final character or attack that kills the main villain is a 10.

[Attitudefan]

I wonder what made Kunzait decide not to come back again.

It's a shame, really. All those crazy times back then were really fun. There were so many intelligent (and quality) discussions that were really worthwhile for everyone. 2009 was the year for me to be a part of the fun forums. Now it doesn't feel the same anymore. Like most posters said in this thread, many people left. NeptuneKai, Kunzait, RoarkVegeta, Dayspring, Tweaker, MajinVejitaXV, SaiyanProfessor, SSJ_Rambo all left. Recently Big Momma came back. Kendamu rarely comes here nowadays.

Also ban the power level discussions.

Edit: Just want to say something while I'm at it. The reason why I'm not a frequent user any more is because, as you guessed it, most of the discussions don't seem interesting to me anymore. There's just not enough variety to them, and I've lost the interest to get involved in debates. Don't get me wrong. I do still visit the forums to see what's going on, just not actively involved like I used to.

You know, it was in 2009 I visited the site and it had all these neat discussions going which caused me join later.
I feel that there are a lot of newer members, and us older, in both age and in membership, have seen the threads that the newer members come up with before. Yet, those same threads are fresh and new to the younger and more recent members. Thus, we older members have been pushed out---literally---as we have no interest to join in the discussions any more. I haven't really been on in over a month because none of the topics are new and/or interesting. But I don't want to be like Dayspring and just leave. So, I try to contribute to the best of my ability when the opportunity arises.

I do really miss Dayspring et al. They were fun and cool members with great minds.

[Godo]

I haven't really been on in over a month because none of the topics are new and/or interesting. But I don't want to be like Dayspring and just leave. So, I try to contribute to the best of my ability when the opportunity arises.

Wow, that's pretty much what goes on in my head, although I have never thought of it that directly. Well put!
With all the Battle of Gods discussion, I felt like I had to watch the damn movie to be in tune with the hip youngsters and understand what all this Bils and Whis thing was about (and why everyone held them in such high regard as to compare them as Vegetto's superior). After that I could relate to the discussions.
But still, to no avail, I don't get a lot of the connections people make, but lets leave that for another thread.

[TripleRach]

I've been fairly inactive for a while, so I can't really speak for the current quality of discussion, because there's a lot of stuff I haven't gotten to yet. But I don't think power levels themselves are a problem. I've seen decent, relatively mature discussions about them in the past. I know some reasonable people who are actively interested in them, and once upon a time I'd delve into it myself (and am still somewhat interested in certain aspects of it). I also know there are plenty of other subjects that get pretty heated (video games, recent movies, certain voices or music, etc). So I would think it's more about individual posters being hostile or immature or other perceived negative traits, which you have to deal with case-by-case to do it fairly.

Of course it's possible I'm completely wrong, and something about strength debates makes people turn into large green rage monsters who want to smash calculators and guidebooks. But I just wanted to give some thoughts from the sidelines. (My absence has nothing to do with Dragon Ball or Kanzenshuu. Just an example of "shit happens," which I'm sure has happened to other members at times. But I should be more active again in the near future.)