I Feel Like I Shouldn't Like Dragon Ball Z

[thatdbzguy]

Someone said something recently that had me thinking:

"If DBZ has sloppy writing and shallow characters, then what redeeming factors does it have other than pure nostalgia?"

The more I think about it, the more I see how DBZ pretty much sticks the middle finger to the "textbook definition" of a good show/manga. It also doesn't help how DBZ is nothing more than a laughing stock amongst the more "hardcore" anime fans who've seen shows with exceptional writing and character depth.

I love DBZ, but I feel like I shouldn't. If it doesn't bother with having factors that are generally considered to be what make a show good in the first place, then why should I love it as much as I do?

[Tanooki Kuribo]

You can find good and bad in every show. When you focus on the bad things then sure, it might not seem appealing.

[Big Momma]

The series as a whole is great. Lot's of wonderful heroes, arcs, and villains. The DBZ anime has poor pacing among other issues, but that shouldn't detract from the quality of the series itself. Besides, lots of shows have those issues.

[Kendamu]

I'm not gonna apologize for the fact that there aren't as many moment in the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole that shout, "HERE IS AN OBVIOUS CHARACTER DEFINING MOMENT OF CHANGE!!" as loud as it can at you and instead goes the route of characters slowly changing over time but still overall being something resembling who they were when you first met them (like in real life).

Also, those guys don't take into account that if you start with Z, you've missed half the story and have skipped over the development and growth of virtually the entire core cast as well as the world they live in. When you start with Z, the introduction of places like Hell or other planets just feels like the stage being set up for the viewer. In reality, this is supposed to be a mind-blowing development that expands into unheard of places and sets up for a LOT of character development on Goku and Piccolo's parts up through the end of the Freeza arc.

Anyone who says otherwise without a good reason is blowing smoke and just trying to act cool.

[sintzu]

Someone said something recently that had me thinking:"If DBZ has sloppy writing and shallow characters, then what redeeming factors does it have other than pure nostalgia?"

if that was true then dbz wouldn't be where it is now

The more I think about it, the more I see how DBZ pretty much sticks the middle finger to the "textbook definition" of a good show/manga.

waht does defin a good anime/manga ? good story and charecters wich dbz has both

It also doesn't help how DBZ is nothing more than a laughing stock amongst the more "hardcore" anime fans

and you care about what they think because ?

I love DBZ, but I feel like I shouldn't. If it doesn't bother with having factors that are generally considered to be what make a show good in the first place, then why should I love it as much as I do?

the reason you love it is because it does have the factors that make a good show/manga and billons of other fans love it for the same reasons and don't give a .... about what the haters think of it and you shouldn't ether

[Kid Buu]

Dragon Ball has a high sense of adventure, memorable characters, and intense action scenes. It may not be as "deep" as these other hardcore anime/manga series, but most serious anime I've seen come across as melodramatic. Toriyama's manga doesn't deny the fact that it's just an enjoyable kid's comic, and that's what I like about it.

[Blade]

Dragonball has appealed to, and continues to appeal to, the imaginations of millions across the globe for decades - with the borders of language and culture proving an insignificant gulf in the wake of its proliferation.

Personally I think there's something very special about that. Sure, it doesn't have the television screenplay writing of Breaking Bad, the literary themes of a Stephen King novel or the poetic, duplicitous dialogue of Shakespeare, but as a work of fiction I think a lot of people are very wrong to underestimate it at face value. Dragonball is a very good example of a bildungsroman, at first for Goku and then later for Gohan.

Furthermore, when it comes to issues such as morality and the divide between good and evil I think Dragonball can actually be quite thought provoking if considered in proper depth. For example: was Piccolo Jr. ever truly evil, or merely indoctrinated into a hate for Goku from birth? Can the primal, animalistic Majin (Kid) Buu be considered any more evil than a wild animal when mindless destruction was all he was created to do? I'm just scraping two examples together off the top of my head here - but you get the point, there's sufficient depth in anything if your mind is not satisfied simply with being spoon-fed everything from a plate.

Just because something isn't given to you directly from the narrative doesn't mean it's not there, or isn't implicit. I think Toriyama has always been very good at providing stories that, on the face of it, appear simple and easily consumable for younger audiences, but if you read between the lines he's actually quite clever and mischievous.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'm not gonna apologize for the fact that there aren't as many moment in the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole that shout, "HERE IS AN OBVIOUS CHARACTER DEFINING MOMENT OF CHANGE!!" as loud as it can at you and instead goes the route of characters slowly changing over time but still overall being something resembling who they were when you first met them (like in real life).

Obvious character-defining moments of change happen in real life too. People experience the death of a loved one, they get sick, get cancer, get violently attacked etc., and these dramatic events change people's perspectives on things, define who they are, build character etc. Slow change of course happens as well, but I'm not convinced it actually happens to the majority of characters in DB in any meaningful way.

[90sDBZ]

DB/Z has something more important than exceptional writing and character depth and that is pure enjoyability which is something that most other anime lack. Most of the shows these "hardcore" anime fans watch take themselves way too seriously and usually suck anyway. And it's not like DBZ doesn't have character development. Just because it doesn't constantly force it in your face like lots of other anime would it doesn't mean it's not there. Piccolo changed a great deal over time and his friendship with Gohan was touching. And Vegeta's final atonement was also a really dramatic and emotional moment. And Tien's arc in Dragonball and was great too. Especially when he tried to redeem himself by giving his life to stop King Piccolo.

DB/Z doesn't take itself too seriously and that's one of the best things about it. It's actually a really exciting, engaging and generally feel-good series that has yet to be beaten imo. Who cares if it has flaws. Just because the critics would generally bash it for those flaws it shouldn't stop you from enjoying the series for its positive qualities which far outweigh the negatives imo. If I decided to not like a movie every time the critics bashed it then I probably wouldn't like half as many movies.

[Ajay]

It also doesn't help how DBZ is nothing more than a laughing stock amongst the more "hardcore" anime fans who've seen shows with exceptional writing and character depth.

I feel this stems from the popularity of the show in the 90's and the judgement being passed on Funi's version of the show.
It's a bunch of pretentious anime 'fans' who think anything that isn't super 'underground' and fansubbed is inherently bad.

Like people have said, the show may not possess award winning writing that shoves emotion down your throat at every moment but what it tries to be, I think it does incredibly well.

The show is iconic internationally for a reason. Don't be ashamed.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Character development isn't necessary for having a cool or interesting character. Just look at Goku, he's about as static as you can get, yet somehow he's one of the most interesting characters in any anime I've seen. He's a funny oddball. He's just a charming, likable fellow. Vegeta is the only one that really feels like he developed. The story presented in Dragon Ball is only noticeably sloppy in the Buu arc. The Artficial Human arc has a few plot holes, but nothing so drastic that I would consider it sloppy. You also have to take into account the charm of the world and atmosphere this show brings to the table. It's good stuff. The show is also funny and action packed, I mean nostalgia certainly helps fill in the cracks, or problems if you will, of this show, but as a whole it's not something that is just nostalgic. The characters are funny and have charm. The story is interesting and the action is by far the best I've seen in any anime or manga. Don't let some ignorant hater fool you into thinking this show/manga brings nothing to the table, he's dead wrong.

[Kid Buu]

It's a bunch of pretentious anime 'fans' who think anything that isn't super 'underground' and fansubbed is inherently bad.

The "Elitist" Anime fandom just hates anything popular. Back when I first joined message boards in 2004 it was cool to hate DBZ and InuYasha. Now its cool to hate Naruto and Bleach. Whatever becomes big next in the US will be the next target.

[ect5150]

The "Elitist" Anime fandom just hates anything popular. Back when I first joined message boards in 2004 it was cool to hate DBZ and InuYasha. Now its cool to hate Naruto and Bleach. Whatever becomes big next in the US will be the next target.

Quoted for the truth of it...

This small video series (4 parts) shows some of the arrogance of it all in many different aspects. The video is on fan subtitles and what an abomination some of them have become -- and how it should be done. Really interesting if you like subs.

[Kendamu]

I'm not gonna apologize for the fact that there aren't as many moment in the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole that shout, "HERE IS AN OBVIOUS CHARACTER DEFINING MOMENT OF CHANGE!!" as loud as it can at you and instead goes the route of characters slowly changing over time but still overall being something resembling who they were when you first met them (like in real life).

Obvious character-defining moments of change happen in real life too. People experience the death of a loved one, they get sick, get cancer, get violently attacked etc., and these dramatic events change people's perspectives on things, define who they are, build character etc. Slow change of course happens as well, but I'm not convinced it actually happens to the majority of characters in DB in any meaningful way.

Yes, that's true. Though Imeant it in regards to a huge character change taking place in a 24-minute block that comes complete with inner monologue and theme music as opposed to the more likely slow changes people go through over time in their lives. Yes, traumatic events can change a person and that moment can be where that change begins or even manifests itself.

However, coming from experience, the huge changes that resulted from something like a violent attack settled in over time and only gave me a more complete outlook on certain things while still retaining pretty much my normal personality rather than giving me a movie-like moment that instantaneously turned me into Batman.

[Ajay]

This small video series (4 parts) shows some of the arrogance of it all in many different aspects. The video is on fan subtitles and what an abomination some of them have become -- and how it should be done. Really interesting if you like subs.

Totally off topic but I can't say I agree with a majority of the points he raises in those videos.

Translating attack names, excluding -san and -sama and compromising line accuracy for the sake of a 100% natural reading at all times is just silly to me.

Take Dragon Ball as an example - I don't think anyone here is honestly going to want to read 'Lord/Master Kaio' or even try to imagine what they'd translate 'Son-kun' too.

There's limits, of course. Like he mentioned in the video, it's silly to include translation notes at every single damn point but if it's something that's contextually important then I see no issues. Whether that be a name on an office door, important text on a board or clothing, there's nothing wrong with translating that so long as it's important. The guy seemed to make it out like it's totally aimless to ignore things like that.

Another example would be well known Japanese references that would otherwise be lost on an English viewer. If it's vital to the plot, give me some idea as to what it's about rather than just replacing it with something that kinda fits.

That's about as far as my nitpicking goes. Karaoke and stupid sub-styling bugs the shit out of me so I'm totally with him on that. Also, groups that have to leave everything perfectly literal are equally as annoying. There was a group who did Battle of Gods that decided to use 'Saiyajin' and spell Kaio as 'Kaiou' but left Goku as it is rather be consistent and use 'Gokou'. When there's a professional out there who's set a standard, it's your job to be consistent with that level of quality until that particular person's subtitles are released with the localised product. If you're doing worse then what's the damn point?!

[Puto]

There was a group who did Battle of Gods that decided to use 'Saiyajin' and spell Kaio as 'Kaiou' but left Goku as it is rather be consistent and use 'Gokou'.

Consistency with Kaiou would be Gokuu. Spelling Gokū's name with 'ou' is flat out wrong.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Yes, that's true. Though Imeant it in regards to a huge character change taking place in a 24-minute block that comes complete with inner monologue and theme music as opposed to the more likely slow changes people go through over time in their lives.

Yeah, definitely. There's such a thing as being melodramatic, but I still think drama has its place in fiction.

However, coming from experience, the huge changes that resulted from something like a violent attack settled in over time and only gave me a more complete outlook on certain things while still retaining pretty much my normal personality rather than giving me a movie-like moment that instantaneously turned me into Batman.

Everyone deals with big events differently according to a number of things. Most people aren't going to turn into Batman, but most people aren't multi-millionaires with a strong moral compass living in a crime-ridden city. Most people are probably going to deal with a crisis the way you did, but you can't say that everyone will.

[Thanos]

In terms of character development... I feel like the "bad guy turned good" trope was used way too often, so that's definitely a legitimate criticism. Yamucha, Lunch, Kuririn, Tenshinhan/Chaozu, Piccolo, Vegeta, #17/#18, Mr. Buu...

[Ajay]

Consistency with Kaiou would be Gokuu. Spelling Gokū's name with 'ou' is flat out wrong.

That's my fault for having 'Gokou' on all the official posters plastered around my walls. Wonder what year they started getting it right?

[TheGmGoken]

Well only way you can say that DBZ didn't have devolpment and shinning is if you didn't watch Dragonball. Sorry but that means you missed out on every character before they was useless(Aka the humans). Krillin went from a cheater to a great ally. Bu;ma went from a whore/slut to a WOMAN. Piccolo when from Demon to A Jr(Reincarnation) with revenge to a Second Father or an uncle. Goku went from naive to goofy to asshole. Trust me. YOU SHOULD like DBZ. The plot isn't as complex because Toriyama isn't a complex writer. I doubt he wanted the story to be all boring and like this character will start from the bottem and overcome the odds type of story. But just wanted a good time.

"If DBZ has sloppy writing and shallow characters, then what redeeming factors does it have other than pure nostalgia?"

DBZ did not have sloppy writing. Bad pacing yes. The character aren't shallow. Once again unless you didn't watch the first have you would know this.

It also doesn't help how DBZ is nothing more than a laughing stock amongst the more "hardcore" anime fans who've seen shows with exceptional writing and character depth.

Hardcore fans laugh at anything and are hypocrite who change their minds every second. One moment they are like DBZ IS THE KING of anime and the next they hate it. Trust me. I'm a hardcore anime fan for life. I seen how people change their mind whatever it's wrestling, anime, comic, games, or Math. DBZ honestly have one of the best character developments story. Also DBZ doesn't get that much hate(Aka being the laughing stock) as most anime does now a days.