I Feel Like I Shouldn't Like Dragon Ball Z

[DonZ]

I don't like it. It also doesn't help that I find the characters to be completely dull. Rock Lee and Might Guy are my favorite characters, and they are nothing like the other characters.

basically Shippuden did the whole "characters being useless" more than DBZ. except for Hidan and Kakuzu arc.

and when it was getting good he had to ruin it by having naruto kill kakuzo when it should have been kakashi and chogi

Hey.. at least Shikamaru get to kill some Akatsuki member that's one of the best thing happened in Shippuden.

[rereboy]

Just because they aren't mainstream overseas, doesn't mean that they aren't mainstream in japan.

[Looneygamemaster]

"If DBZ has sloppy writing and shallow characters, then what redeeming factors does it have other than pure nostalgia?"

It can still be a fun (albeit shallow) action series. G Gundam is campy and stupid, with some occasional iffy writing, but its celebration of the Super Robot genre (and Imagawa's love of old films) still makes it easy to get caught up in. Soul Eater has not one original bone in its body, nor one "deep" character among its cast, but its sleek direction and fantastic Tim Burton-esque art still make it a great show.

I love DBZ, but I feel like I shouldn't. If it doesn't bother with having factors that are generally considered to be what make a show good in the first place, then why should I love it as much as I do?

If a work of fiction is close to your heart, it's very possible to overlook its flaws. And I feel that as long as you don't lose sight of those flaws (don't try to pass it off as a work of greatness, basically) there's nothing wrong with that. Why do you think I like DBZ? I don't consider it great, or even good anime--it has far too many flaws for that. But I like it anyway, because Dragon Ball rocks.

[Kid Buu]

The "Elitist" Anime fandom just hates anything popular. Back when I first joined message boards in 2004 it was cool to hate DBZ and InuYasha. Now its cool to hate Naruto and Bleach. Whatever becomes big next in the US will be the next target.

Naruto and Bleach are hated nowadays with good reason. They REALLY let themselves go.

That's what people say about Toriyama's manga series too.

Personally, I do think both series lose their charm as they went on, but I started to like Bleach again when the Fullbring arc started.

[rereboy]

That's what people say about Toriyama's manga series too.

Never heard anyone say that. They either like or they don't like it. At most they prefer certain arcs of Dragon Ball and don't like certain arcs as much, but never to the point they would state that the manga really let itself go to that point (of boredom and mediocrity).

[Hellspawn28]

With anime hipsters, I see common comments like "Dragon Ball with Goku as a kid was great. DBZ and GT suck big time".

[DonZ]

With anime hipsters, I see common comments like "Dragon Ball with Goku as a kid was great. DBZ and GT suck big time".

Exactly! i see that's a lot too. but for me the Saiyajin and Frieza arcs are both better than anything in the original Dragon Ball.

[rereboy]

If they are putting DBZ and GT in the same boat, they don't know what they are talking about.

[DonZ]

If they are putting DBZ and GT in the same boat, they don't know what they are talking about.

I don't think anyone need to say that GT sucks to insult the Dragon Ball series. cuz even 95% of the fans hate GT, some of them love it but they know it's bad in term of quality. they just do, maybe for nostalgia or something like that.

[Hellspawn28]

I won't say it's a insult if some people like it. Some people like Episode of Bardock, Bio Broli and even DBE too.

[Kid Buu]

That's what people say about Toriyama's manga series too.

Never heard anyone say that. They either like or they don't like it. At most they prefer certain arcs of Dragon Ball and don't like certain arcs as much, but never to the point they would state that the manga really let itself go to that point (of boredom and mediocrity).

Huh? I've seen people say the series should have ended at 23rd Budokai, or after Namek, or after Cell Games. I've even seen people on this forum say it.

[DonZ]

That's what people say about Toriyama's manga series too.

Never heard anyone say that. They either like or they don't like it. At most they prefer certain arcs of Dragon Ball and don't like certain arcs as much, but never to the point they would state that the manga really let itself go to that point (of boredom and mediocrity).

Huh? I've seen people say the series should have ended at 23rd Budokai, or after Namek, or after Cell Games. I've even seen people on this forum say it.

I think after the Cell Games was the perfect timing to finish the series. Majin Buu arc was pointless, i totally agree with the "DBZ should've ended after Cell Games"

[TheSonofKakarrot]

Dragonball has appealed to, and continues to appeal to, the imaginations of millions across the globe for decades - with the borders of language and culture proving an insignificant gulf in the wake of its proliferation.

Personally I think there's something very special about that. Sure, it doesn't have the television screenplay writing of Breaking Bad, the literary themes of a Stephen King novel or the poetic, duplicitous dialogue of Shakespeare, but as a work of fiction I think a lot of people are very wrong to underestimate it at face value. Dragonball is a very good example of a bildungsroman, at first for Goku and then later for Gohan.

Furthermore, when it comes to issues such as morality and the divide between good and evil I think Dragonball can actually be quite thought provoking if considered in proper depth. For example: was Piccolo Jr. ever truly evil, or merely indoctrinated into a hate for Goku from birth? Can the primal, animalistic Majin (Kid) Buu be considered any more evil than a wild animal when mindless destruction was all he was created to do? I'm just scraping two examples together off the top of my head here - but you get the point, there's sufficient depth in anything if your mind is not satisfied simply with being spoon-fed everything from a plate.

Just because something isn't given to you directly from the narrative doesn't mean it's not there, or isn't implicit. I think Toriyama has always been very good at providing stories that, on the face of it, appear simple and easily consumable for younger audiences, but if you read between the lines he's actually quite clever and mischievous.

I 100% agree with this post.

It's very interesting that you bring this up. I remember when I was in my teens watching the show, the idea of Vegeta and all the other baddies wanting to be eternally young was just a simple plot device for these specific characters.

However, as I get older now, I actually discuss this quite often with my friends. We, as human beings, fear the idea of becoming old and we constantly are finding ways to preserve our youth, women especially. Whether it be some sort of facial cream, or getting into specific eating habits, we try to preserve our youth as best as we can and also have issues letting go and realizing that we indeed are becoming old. However, the natural part of life is to grow old and embrace the change, despite how much we may fear it. This is why I always mention to my friends on my birthday "I can see why Vegeta wanted to be eternally young." I don't want to be old; I would love to be eternally young. But to not embrace this change is the "evil" part of the mind not being able to let go of things beyond your control.

And everyone here would love to be eternally young. Vegeta exhibits this desire that is in all of us.

Dragonball is simplistic on the surface. But it can be so much more than what is written in the manga/displayed in the anime.

[rereboy]

That's what people say about Toriyama's manga series too.

Never heard anyone say that. They either like or they don't like it. At most they prefer certain arcs of Dragon Ball and don't like certain arcs as much, but never to the point they would state that the manga really let itself go to that point (of boredom and mediocrity).

Huh? I've seen people say the series should have ended at 23rd Budokai, or after Namek, or after Cell Games. I've even seen people on this forum say it.

Like I said, they prefer certain arcs and many times argue that some points of the story would work better as the ending than the real ending. However, I've never seen anyone say that Dragon Ball really let itself go after a certain point, and that eventually lost what made it good, its charm and just became boring and a drag and a pain to watch, way inferior to what came before and barely recognizable in terms of quality (which is basically what its being said about Naruto and Bleach and its basically true). At least not regarding any of the arcs of DBZ. DBGT is another matter.

So, they are just basically arguing which arcs they consider superior and whatnot. Its very different from what I was saying, in my opinion.

I 100% agree with this post.

It's very interesting that you bring this up. I remember when I was in my teens watching the show, the idea of Vegeta and all the other baddies wanting to be eternally young was just a simple plot device for these specific characters.

However, as I get older now, I actually discuss this quite often with my friends. We, as human beings, fear the idea of becoming old and we constantly are finding ways to preserve our youth, women especially. Whether it be some sort of facial cream, or getting into specific eating habits, we try to preserve our youth as best as we can and also have issues letting go and realizing that we indeed are becoming old. However, the natural part of life is to grow old and embrace the change, despite how much we may fear it. This is why I always mention to my friends on my birthday "I can see why Vegeta wanted to be eternally young." I don't want to be old; I would love to be eternally young. But to not embrace this change is the "evil" part of the mind not being able to let go of things beyond your control.

And everyone here would love to be eternally young. Vegeta exhibits this desire that is in all of us.

Dragonball is simplistic on the surface. But it can be so much more than what is written in the manga/displayed in the anime.

Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars have a time limit. Even the universe itself. If someone was truly immortal or eternally young, he would have to deal with the end and death of everything around him, all the other people and even the planet itself, the sun and the universe. It would be more of a curse than a blessing. However, having the life span of a human being, while still having a young body right until our death would be nice.

[Kid Buu]

Like I said, they prefer certain arcs and many times argue that some points of the story would work better as the ending than the real ending. However, I've never seen anyone say that Dragon Ball really let itself go after a certain point, and that eventually lost what made it good, its charm and just became boring and a drag and a pain to watch, way inferior to what came before and barely recognizable in terms of quality (which is basically what its being said about Naruto and Bleach and its basically true). At least not regarding any of the arcs of DBZ. DBGT is another matter.

So, they are just basically arguing which arcs they consider superior and whatnot. Its very different from what I was saying, in my opinion.

Nope, I've seen people say the series jumped the shark and that anything after it was bad. Lots of people dislike the Cell Saga and especially the Buu Saga. Then you get people saying the show went to shit when it became DBZ, similar to how people say Naruto became shit when it became Shippuden.

[Adamant]

I'm kind of caught with things like attack names. But in terms of "kun, san, etc." I feel it's better to add Mr/Mrs, or just leave them out (Just putting "Son" in the subs for "Son-kun"). As these are honorifics are used differently than the way English honorifics are. I imagine a Japanese person watching an English show with subtitles, and just having them say "Smith-san(スミスさん)" as opposed to "Mister Smith(ミスター スミス)" I dunno, I don't know how Japanese people feel about this, but it seems translating things like "san" to "Mr/Mrs" or just leaving honorifics out of subtitles would work better unless there's an important plot-related reason as to why they are referred to with a specific honorific.

I don't know about Japan, but I can at least tell you that foreign honorifics like "Mr." are left in their original language way more often than not in subtitled media here in Norway.

[Ajay]

I'm kind of caught with things like attack names. But in terms of "kun, san, etc." I feel it's better to add Mr/Mrs, or just leave them out (Just putting "Son" in the subs for "Son-kun"). As these are honorifics are used differently than the way English honorifics are. I imagine a Japanese person watching an English show with subtitles, and just having them say "Smith-san(スミスさん)" as opposed to "Mister Smith(ミスター スミス)" I dunno, I don't know how Japanese people feel about this, but it seems translating things like "san" to "Mr/Mrs" or just leaving honorifics out of subtitles would work better unless there's an important plot-related reason as to why they are referred to with a specific honorific.

I don't know about Japan, but I can at least tell you that foreign honorifics like "Mr." are left in their original language way more often than not in subtitled media here in Norway.

Yeah, I would rather it be left in when there's no proper equivalent.

I had no idea what -kun and -chan were all about but after a few episodes you can quite easily work it out by the context in which they're used.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Back to dbzguy, I get that. I think a lot of here get that. The old axiom "*Blank* is like Disney; you grow out of it, then you grow back into it once you're old enough to realize why it's actually good." is a good reference point, but it's also a double-edged sword, because you also realize why something is a kid's property. I'm not going to be the one who denies how strange it is that a lost of us are enjoying a kid's property like this when we're out of the age range, even when it's harmless.

[EXBadguy]

Fuck the haters, you like what you wanna like, they are just speaking their opinion. Some say Piccolo training Kid Gohan was child abuse, did it bother me when they said that? No! However one problem about it is the Goku escaping Namek part. They could've either put the scene where Goku escapes to the ship or just be wished back. Other than that, all the other plot holes the anime has can be overlooked. And DBZ also shows that not every anime villain needs to have a cliche emotional back story. Look at Cell and Buu's backstories, they made sense and on point.

And not to be rude but good god... PLEASE STOP WITH THESE THREADS! It's getting annoying! Understand that everyone has an opinion and every anime has inconsistencies and flaws somewhat. Just because somebody says that an anime you like has sloppy writing doesn't make it true, unless if it's not popular. Look at freaking Battle of Gods. Some say it has poor writing and the Super Saiyan God is awful, some enjoyed it. It all comes down to their opinions. OPINIONS, NOT FACTS!!

[Big Momma]

I'm not going to be the one who denies how strange it is that a lost of us are enjoying a kid's property like this when we're out of the age range, even when it's harmless.

That's the thing; there's nothing strange about it. Despite whatever age group this series was marketed towards, it has a broad range of appeal. There's a horrible, incredibly stupid stigma (especially in America) that any adult who enjoys animation, or a show that is "for kids" is somehow immature/weird/strange/etc. That's a complete load. If a show is entertaining, it's entertaining, and that's the end of it. Regardless of the target Demographic or whatever social restraints you want to put on it. There should never be a limit to who should or should not enjoy a property like that.