Goku's "Kili" measurement?

[Zidiane]

During Goku's fight with Yakon, Babidi and Dabura measure SSJ Goku's "Kili" measurement at 3,000, and state that Yakon had 800 Kili. And in the anime Dabura states that 200 or 300 Kili would be enough to destroy a planet. And if SSJ multiplier is taken into account, then Base Goku should have 60 Kili, but he was still beating Yakon easily before transforming and kinda seemed like he was doing it just to prove that they could see if they wanted to not cause he needed it to win. So if you take this to mean that Goku's 60 Kili > Yakkon's 800 Kili, then Goku could probably destroy a planet with no more than 15-25 Kili, meaning with this form of estimation Goku would be able to destroy minimum 120-200 planets at SSJ.

Any discussion to be had about this?

[Super Vegetto]

AT didn't put so much brain in kiri and it's pretty obvious,so don't take it serious.

Btw Goku neads SSJ to beat Yakkon, as stated by Gohan.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Simple, the Ssj multiplier is flexible after mastering Ssj.

[Marco Polo]

You're assuming kilis follow a linear scale. It could just as well be logarithmic.

[KentalSSJ6]

The Kili statement is wrong, as it would imply Goku still has a power level of 150 million. Meaning the statement basically says Goku didn't get stronger at all since Namek.

[Blade]

I always read that the use of 'Killi' readings was merely Toriyama's way of demonstrating, as he did with scouters and 'power levels', how useless and inaccurate it is to try and estimate the constantly in-flux power of the protagonists, who can clearly raise or lower their power at will and become stronger after every fight.

[hleV]

Goku wasn't using his full power.

[Zidiane]

AT didn't put so much brain in kiri and it's pretty obvious,so don't take it serious.

Btw Goku neads SSJ to beat Yakkon, as stated by Gohan.

Eh, it was stated so I thought I'd bring it up. I didn't see Gohan say that. He told him not to go SSJ after Yakkon ate his energy, then offered to help when Goku turned, possibly being worried that Goku felt he couldn't win without SSJ. And even if Gohan felt Goku couldn't win without SSJ, he didn't seem so up to par with reading fights after the time jump. Didn't he not realize something was wrong with Spopovich vs Videl, and thought Videl was winning while Goku and Vegeta immediately knew she was in trouble?

Simple, the Ssj multiplier is flexible after mastering Ssj.

So you're saying that Goku was using a lower multiplier than 50x?

You're assuming kilis follow a linear scale. It could just as well be logarithmic.

That's true. But saying it's Linear is just as valid as saying it's Logarithmic, ain't it? I'm just proposing a theory, and saying it's linear is easier than not, since I have no other variables or measurements.

The Kili statement is wrong, as it would imply Goku still has a power level of 150 million. Meaning the statement basically says Goku didn't get stronger at all since Namek.

What? Why? I don't get it. I personally don't put much stock in power levels, but how would this Kili measurement mean that? Kili doesn't have any conversion rate to power levels, and this is the only time Kili was used, and I don't think they've ever stated how many planets Goku could blow up, so even if my theory is 100% legit it wouldn't get in the way of Goku stuff, would it?

I always read that the use of 'Killi' readings was merely Toriyama's way of demonstrating, as he did with scouters and 'power levels', how useless and inaccurate it is to try and estimate the constantly in-flux power of the protagonists, who can clearly raise or lower their power at will and become stronger after every fight.

Hmm... I think this is a little different. Everyone who used a scouter was doing so to estimate their opponent, and then would usually lose, or get made a fool of because of what they took for granted. In this case, Babidi underestimates the opponents first, and then confirms that the opponents stronger than he thought and should be taken seriously with the Kili device. It's the opposite, he took them seriously after the measurement instead of underestimating them afterward.

Goku wasn't using his full power.

I meant all this as "Goku can at least blow up 120-200" planets.

[Super Vegetto]

Eh, it was stated so I thought I'd bring it up. I didn't see Gohan say that. He told him not to go SSJ after Yakkon ate his energy, then offered to help when Goku turned, possibly being worried that Goku felt he couldn't win without SSJ. And even if Gohan felt Goku couldn't win without SSJ, he didn't seem so up to par with reading fights after the time jump. Didn't he not realize something was wrong with Spopovich vs Videl, and thought Videl was winning while Goku and Vegeta immediately knew she was in trouble?

This is what he says in manga.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

I don't understand your other question...

[Polyphase Avatron]

The numbers never have made sense and never will. This goes for power levels as well.

[Zidiane]

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

I don't understand your other question...

He says the page before that "Don't turn into a super saiyan again, he eats light energy" doesn't he? If Goku couldn't win without SSJ, he would have offered assistance then. Waiting until Goku tries to transform again suggests to me that Gohan believed his father didn't think he could win without SSJ, and that's not the same as Gohan saying "I don't think Goku can win without SSJ".

My other statement was basically "Gohan doesn't have the best track record, since the fight with Videl he completely underestimated Spopovich and thought Videl could win, so I'm not sure I trust his battle instincts at this point in time."

[Super Vegetto]

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

I don't understand your other question...

He says the page before that "Don't turn into a super saiyan again, he eats light energy" doesn't he? If Goku couldn't win without SSJ, he would have offered assistance then. Waiting until Goku tries to transform again suggests to me that Gohan believed his father didn't think he could win without SSJ, and that's not the same as Gohan saying "I don't think Goku can win without SSJ".

My other statement was basically "Gohan doesn't have the best track record, since the fight with Videl he completely underestimated Spopovich and thought Videl could win, so I'm not sure I trust his battle instincts at this point in time."

You are forgeting the point. Gohan states that Goku can't win without SSJ, so he wants to help him. Goku clearly has much more energy in store and can finish battle fast, but he doesn't want to.

Again i don't understand why you say that because Goku clearly says that he doesn't nead help.

Not realy. Videl was putting a good fight and no one knew about Spopo and Yamu strenght, until they showed it. They assumed that Spopo is holding back, but again Videl was dominating.

There is no reason why we shouldn't take this quote seriously. It's not gag scene or something...

[Zidiane]

You are forgeting the point. Gohan states that Goku can't win without SSJ, so he wants to help him. Goku clearly has much more energy in store and can finish battle fast, but he doesn't want to.

Again i don't understand why you say that because Goku clearly says that he doesn't nead help.

We're interpreting the scene differently, there's no way to come to an agreement. I'm saying it's the timing which Gohan states "let me help you" that suggests to me that Goku would have won without transforming.

Not realy. Videl was putting a good fight and no one knew about Spopo and Yamu strenght, until they showed it. They assumed that Spopo is holding back, but again Videl was dominating.

There is no reason why we shouldn't take this quote seriously. It's not gag scene or something...

Goku noticed there was something wrong right away.

[Super Vegetto]

You are forgeting the point. Gohan states that Goku can't win without SSJ, so he wants to help him. Goku clearly has much more energy in store and can finish battle fast, but he doesn't want to.

Again i don't understand why you say that because Goku clearly says that he doesn't nead help.

We're interpreting the scene differently, there's no way to come to an agreement. I'm saying it's the timing which Gohan states "let me help you" that suggests to me that Goku would have won without transforming.

Not realy. Videl was putting a good fight and no one knew about Spopo and Yamu strenght, until they showed it. They assumed that Spopo is holding back, but again Videl was dominating.

There is no reason why we shouldn't take this quote seriously. It's not gag scene or something...

Goku noticed there was something wrong right away.

Gohan says that before Goku transformed, and after he transformed. This implies that Base Goku is weaker than Yakkon and nothing contradicts it.

Goku noticed Spopo's endurance and that something is diffrent about him. He couldn't sense his energy despite getting up every time Videl knocks him down. No wonder why Gohan was under impresion that Videl is stronger...

[Zidiane]

Gohan says that before Goku transformed, and after he transformed. This implies that Base Goku is weaker than Yakkon and nothing contradicts it.

Goku noticed Spopo's endurance and that something is diffrent about him. He couldn't sense his energy despite getting up every time Videl knocks him down. No wonder why Gohan was under impresion that Videl is stronger...

Well, Goku had taken no damage from Yakon and was beating him in the dark. Goku transformed after saying "Well, I could see if I really wanted to", implying that the transformation was to prove a point. Right after Yakkon sucks the energy out, Gohan says "Don't transform again", not "You can't beat him, let me help", and reserves that until Goku says he's going to transform again to give Yakon another meal.

If Gohan DIDN'T notice something was off with the guy, then something is wrong with Gohan's ability to asses an opponent. He isn't as sharp as he used to be when fighting's concerned, but that makes sense cause he's spent 7 years studying and not fighting.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku landed a nice kick on Yakon, but I think that had more to do with Yakon underestimating Goku's fighting ability in the dark rather than a significant advantage he had. Before they went to the dark planet, Yakon's claw attack actually had Goku a bit nervous.

[Super Vegetto]

Gohan says that before Goku transformed, and after he transformed. This implies that Base Goku is weaker than Yakkon and nothing contradicts it.

Goku noticed Spopo's endurance and that something is diffrent about him. He couldn't sense his energy despite getting up every time Videl knocks him down. No wonder why Gohan was under impresion that Videl is stronger...

Well, Goku had taken no damage from Yakon and was beating him in the dark. Goku transformed after saying "Well, I could see if I really wanted to", implying that the transformation was to prove a point. Right after Yakkon sucks the energy out, Gohan says "Don't transform again", not "You can't beat him, let me help", and reserves that until Goku says he's going to transform again to give Yakon another meal.

If Gohan DIDN'T notice something was off with the guy, then something is wrong with Gohan's ability to asses an opponent. He isn't as sharp as he used to be when fighting's concerned, but that makes sense cause he's spent 7 years studying and not fighting.

Goku almost got cut in half, and he wasn't beating Yakkon at all. The quote i posted already explains everything.

It's not the same. Spopo didn't give away any ki and he had abbilites far surpassing his level. No wonder Gohan didn't noticed it while Videl was crushing him.

[Puto]

You're all assuming that Kili and battle powers are in the same scale. They're not necessarily directly proportional.

[Zidiane]

Goku landed a nice kick on Yakon, but I think that had more to do with Yakon underestimating Goku's fighting ability in the dark rather than a significant advantage he had. Before they went to the dark planet, Yakon's claw attack actually had Goku a bit nervous.

The way Goku got caught, he seemed very surprised that Yakkon's claws were retractable. That means he thought he dodged something but the range was much greater than he expected. He was easily dodging it while the lights were out, I don't think Yakon could have won against base Goku. Then again, I'm watching the anime, and Goku lands more than a single hit on him.

Goku almost got cut in half, and he wasn't beating Yakkon at all. The quote i posted already explains everything.

I stated my opinion on that. Sequence of events is:

Goku is surprised by Yakon's speed and his retractable claws
Lights go out, Goku avoids all attacks and lands a counter attack
Goku transforms, Yakkon absorbs the energy
Gohan gets nervous, tells Goku to fight without SSJ
Goku says he'll transform again anyway, and then Gohan offers his help to defeat Yaakon

I'm not missing what was said, but it paints a very different picture depending on when it was said.

It's not the same. Spopo didn't give away any ki and he had abbilites far surpassing his level. No wonder Gohan didn't noticed it while Videl was crushing him.

Gohan should have seen Videl land several hits on someone without ki and knew, as Goku did, that something was very wrong with her opponent. But he didn't. His fighting sense has dulled. Doesn't Vegeta say the same thing several times? I just can't put so much trust in his measurements at this point in the story, I'm sorry.

[Monkey D Goku]

Eh, it was stated so I thought I'd bring it up. I didn't see Gohan say that. He told him not to go SSJ after Yakkon ate his energy, then offered to help when Goku turned, possibly being worried that Goku felt he couldn't win without SSJ. And even if Gohan felt Goku couldn't win without SSJ, he didn't seem so up to par with reading fights after the time jump. Didn't he not realize something was wrong with Spopovich vs Videl, and thought Videl was winning while Goku and Vegeta immediately knew she was in trouble?

This is what he says in manga.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

I don't understand your other question...

Keep in mind Gohan's fighting sense was pathetic compared to Vegeta or Goku's during that time. Gohan didn't know what he was talking about. Goku was toying around with Yakon, he probably just went SSJ to prove a point to Yakon about being able to see in the dark then when he knew Yakon could absorb his energy figured I will just kill him by over feeding him.

I think Goku could have easily dispatched Yakon without even becoming a SSJ.