Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[TheBlackPaladin]

There's a difference between being a fan based on reasonable translation and being a fan of a version that tramples over the original meaning over and over again.

On the other hand, what constitutes a "reasonable translation" and what constitutes "trampling over the original meaning over and over again" is subjective. There are those out there who say that if so much as a single word is changed, it's an unreasonable translation. Heck, there are those out there who say that translations in and of themselves are unreasonable. Which is another reason that I personally don't believe there's a real way to identify who's a "real" fan and who isn't.

[penguintruth]

Give me a break, now you're just splitting hairs. There's a huge difference between translations and just plain making crap up and you know it.

[KentalSSJ6]

Give me a break, now you're just splitting hairs. There's a huge difference between translations and just plain making crap up and you know it.

As you and me already talked about not too long ago.

Ahem..'Holy Cosmos look at that thing! That's one whopper of a lizard!"

[Kid Buu]

Give me a break, now you're just splitting hairs. There's a huge difference between translations and just plain making crap up and you know it.

Toei is just as guilty as Funi at making shit up.

Dragon Ball: If bad people die they dont keep their souls.
Toei: lol no, Freeza and Cell kept that bodies

Dragon Ball: Gohan's first rage attack was against Raditz
Toei: lol no, they actually fought a guy called Garlic Jr once who Gohan beat.

Dragon Ball: Goku couldn't find anyone strong in the afterlife.
Toei: lol no, there was this guy called Pikkon who was on par with him.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Give me a break, now you're just splitting hairs. There's a huge difference between translations and just plain making crap up and you know it.

Well, no, I don't know that. I believe that. That's what I'm saying. What constitutes a "different translation" vs "making crap up" is subjective, not objective.

[theoriginalbilis]

I can relate. While I do appreciate Golion, Voltron will always have a place in my heart. To me, it's less "anime" and more "cartoon" to me. Same with Mach-a-Go-Go and Speed Racer.

I can understand the nostalgia, certainly.

I still have a fondness for Robotech, especially it's voice cast, many of whom still work in anime today. Though as a whole, that's basically an entirely different product using the original work's footage. That said, I'm still glad we got the original, uncut Macross (with a new faithful dub even!), and was happy to buy it.

But even I slip into using the Robotech terminology/names every now and then... As someone who supports the anime industry though, I'd wish Robotech would die so we can eventually get the later Macross shows localized though.

[penguintruth]

Give me a break, now you're just splitting hairs. There's a huge difference between translations and just plain making crap up and you know it.

Toei is just as guilty as Funi at making shit up.

Dragon Ball: If bad people die they dont keep their souls.
Toei: lol no, Freeza and Cell kept that bodies

Dragon Ball: Gohan's first rage attack was against Raditz
Toei: lol no, they actually fought a guy called Garlic Jr once who Gohan beat.

Dragon Ball: Goku couldn't find anyone strong in the afterlife.
Toei: lol no, there was this guy called Paikuhan who was on par with him.

Ah yes, this old canard. "Toei made up things, so it's okay for Funimation to make up things."

Uh, no. Funimation didn't dub the manga, they dubbed the TV series.

These arguments in defense of the dub are just getting weaker and weaker.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Ah yes, this old canard. "Toei made up things, so it's okay for Funimation to make up things."

Uh, no. Funimation didn't dub the manga, they dubbed the TV series.

These arguments in defense of the dub are just getting weaker and weaker.

Your argument is pretty weak too. It's okay to change things when adapting a manga into an anime, but it's not okay to change things when dubbing an anime? Why? Seems pretty arbitrary. Personal preference sometimes is arbitrary, but don't pass it off as a solid argument.

[Kid Buu]

Ah yes, this old canard. "Toei made up things, so it's okay for Funimation to make up things."

Uh, no. Funimation didn't dub the manga, they dubbed the TV series.

These arguments in defense of the dub are just getting weaker and weaker.

Uh, no. Nobody said its okay for Funimation to make things up. Nice try to manipulate the situation though. Toei adapted the story from Toriyama, Funi adapted the story from Toei.

[VegettoEX]

I don't see what's wrong with penguintruth's logic. It would be exactly the same if Viz made up dialog and re-wrote character intentions throughout the manga. They generally didn't, but it went there a few times, and we've certainly called them out on it when they did/do.

If your viewpoint is that they are responsible for accurately portraying the product they've licensed, then there you go. Just because Toei took liberties with their product doesn't somehow give a "get out of jail free" card to the foreign-language adaptation companies.

And if you say it does, the only logic you've provided in defense of it is... well... I haven't actually seen any real logic in defense of it, just a red herring "LOOK OVER THERE AT TOEI! (please leave my dub alone, please leave my dub alone)~!!!"

[Thanos]

There's an enormous difference between what FUNimation did and what TOEI does.

What TOEI does is make things up to supplement existing material.

What FUNimation did was remove existing material written by Toriyama, adds things out of no where, and change plot points and character personalities such that it was tantamount to disrespect. Obviously, there is technically no obligation to maintain... anything, really, and the holder of the license (FUNimation) technically has a blank check to do as they please and see fit. But, I would agree with penguintruth (correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position here) that there's an unwritten rule of respect to the source material. To me, the job of a dubbing company is to "bridge the gap" of language to allow English speakers (or whatever the native tongue may be) to enjoy the series without having to get bootlegs or spend a decade learning the language. At the stage in which liberties come into play, it is no longer a translation or dub and becomes that company's own adaptation of a particular series. If anything, the series should've been titled "FUNimation's Dragon Ball Z!" New soundtrack. Added dialogue. Changed characters. Altered story. None of that has anything to do with dubbing.

TOEI enhanced the series (whether it was good or not, it was still technically "enhancement", much like Star Wars books and the like), while FUNimation gave it an American facelift with reckless abandon. I know FUNimation has grown past that and regrets doing what they did, but let's call a spade a spade here.

The point about bad guys keeping their bodies or Garlic coming before Raditz... so what? Those are extremely minor things. There's a big difference between that and, say, the main character being rewritten from being a flawed, battle-obsessed country bumpkin to a white knight Saturday morning action hero.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

And if you say it does, the only logic you've provided in defense of it is... well... I haven't actually seen any real logic in defense of it, just a red herring "LOOK OVER THERE AT TOEI! (please leave my dub alone, please leave my dub alone)~!!!"

Who are you referring to when you say "you"? I have to think I'm at least partly being referred to because I was one of those who took issue with penguintruth's logic, so I'll respond to this.


Penguintruth's point was that it's not okay to make changes when dubbing, but it is okay to make changes when adapting a manga into an anime. That is what he basically said. All I did was ask "Why?" Why is one okay and the other not okay? Why do dubbing companies necessarily have to stick to the original script as closely as possible? Unless stated otherwise, they can do whatever they want with the show, and there's nothing in the definition of dubbing that says they have to either. Even if there were, FUNimation never referred to their product as a "dub"; it was always a "reversioning". It goes without saying that "translation" also never appeared on any official product. Likewise, there's nothing stopping an animation company from making changes when animating a manga if they legally can and make no pretensions about being faithful to the original, but people are generally more okay with this than when dubbing companies do it. They're both adaptations, and that distinction doesn't have much grounding.


To sum up, why is one okay and the other not okay? Unless I get any compelling reason to believe otherwise, the changes FUNi made and the changes Toei made are no different in principle. You could argue whether the changes overall enhanced or diminished the show, but that will always be subjective.

[penguintruth]

Well, first of all, some of the Toei liberties were not altogether okay, and are called out regularly.

Second, it isn't Funimation's place to change the script. They didn't make the show. They didn't write the scripts of the show, they didn't animate it, they had no place in the original production of the show. They're not doing a dub of the manga. Their job is to do a dub accurate to the way the show was created by Toei, warts and all. It doesn't follow that just because Toei took liberties that Funimation can. The show is the show, for better or worse. Making up entire tracts of dialogue that paint characters and scenes differently in effect make it a different show.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I suppose, theoretically, it is possible to be a fan of both versions, but unlikely given how different they are.

It is entirely possible to be a fan of both versions, because um...hi there. *waves* You got one right here. Now, I'm not a fan of everything the old FUNi dub did, but taken as a whole? It's still entirely watchable IMO.

And I again have to state that it's not just a matter of 'don't pick on our dub', t least to me. It's also partially the fact that sometimes, people literally seem to just gather around the proverbial pit that the fandom has thrown the old dub into, and keep poking it's rotting corpse with sticks. We get it, it's not perfect. We get it, it's not FUNi's "place" to make these changes (despite the fact that, you know, as a company their main thought process is, always have been, and should be, to make money - pleasing fans is only a secondary concern when you break it down). Does every thread always have to come around to this point eventually?

Going back to the actual topic, I have met a lot of fans who have looked down upon me or friends for liking DBZ. It's usually the people that, when the first thing they ask is 'what's your favorite anime' and you list DBZ among them, causing them to look like they're about to vomit - it's those people that I can usually tell I'm not gonna get along with.

[Thanos]

people literally seem to just gather around the proverbial pit that the fandom has thrown the old dub into, and keep poking it's rotting corpse with sticks. We get it, it's not perfect. We get it, it's not FUNi's "place" to make these changes (despite the fact that, you know, as a company their main thought process is, always have been, and should be, to make money - pleasing fans is only a secondary concern when you break it down). Does every thread always have to come around to this point eventually?

That's fair enough... however, the fact remains that in many groups, including 99% of YouTube, the old FUNi dub is the gold standard for what Dragon Ball is to them. It honestly wouldn't even really be worth discussing to me anymore, if I weren't literally flamed, called a nerd or told I'm wrong when I use terms derived from the original Japanese rather than from the confines of what was in the old FUNi dub. For example, someone recently replied to a comment simply to ridicule me for using the word 'Kuririn'. I mean... honestly. It's one thing to peacefully separate yourself from a version that doesn't interest you, and another thing entirely to bash those who don't adhere to the same rule as you.

If you're still not convinced of this, go check out the circle jerks that take place to this day of people discussing how superior the Faulconer score is.

[Gyt Kaliba]

See, I can't defend that either, because it's those kinds of dub fans that sicken me just as much (if not more so) than the 'poking the corpse' comparisons I made above. Both sides are equally at fault, but I guess since it's mainly here I come to talk shop about Dragon Ball, it just seems to be more the case that the dub is crapped on more often than not.

So yeah, I'm not saying that it's always the dub fans being persecuted by the sub fans, it definitely goes both ways. But this whole 'true fan' nonsense that gets brought up time and again over which version someone likes just gets old really, really fast, you know?

[TheGmGoken]

But this whole 'true fan' nonsense that gets brought up time and again over which version someone likes just gets old really, really fast, you know?

Okay I agree with you so much on this. I hate when someone say this. I've seen this wording on both sides(Subs,dub, and even manga). Hell I've seen comments saying " I know DBZ kai is more accurate to the manga but if you don't like the Funimation dub then you're not a true fan IMO". What the fuck is a "True fan". What are you a false fan if you disagree? A fake fan? WTF is it?

[Quebaz]

Okay I agree with you so much on this. I hate when someone say this. I've seen this wording on both sides(Subs,dub, and even manga). Hell I've seen comments saying " I know DBZ kai is more accurate to the manga but if you don't like the Funimation dub then you're not a true fan IMO". What the fuck is a "True fan". What are you a false fan if you disagree? A fake fan? WTF is it?

According to the dictionary: An expression used by some retards to make their opinion sound like a fact.

Ahem, It's really just trying to find a way to make you feel inferior.

[TheGmGoken]

Okay I agree with you so much on this. I hate when someone say this. I've seen this wording on both sides(Subs,dub, and even manga). Hell I've seen comments saying " I know DBZ kai is more accurate to the manga but if you don't like the Funimation dub then you're not a true fan IMO". What the fuck is a "True fan". What are you a false fan if you disagree? A fake fan? WTF is it?

According to the dictionary: An expression used by some retards to make their opinion sound like a fact.

Ahem, It's really just trying to find a way to make you feel inferior.

Well I disagree with the wording of retard the definition foots like a boot. A chewy boot. Most of the time it doesn't even faze me. I just be like "WTF is a true fan". It makes you seem like an idiot to be honest.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Well, first of all, some of the Toei liberties were not altogether okay, and are called out regularly.

Second, it isn't Funimation's place to change the script. They didn't make the show. They didn't write the scripts of the show, they didn't animate it, they had no place in the original production of the show. They're not doing a dub of the manga. Their job is to do a dub accurate to the way the show was created by Toei, warts and all. It doesn't follow that just because Toei took liberties that Funimation can. The show is the show, for better or worse. Making up entire tracts of dialogue that paint characters and scenes differently in effect make it a different show.

FUNimation's "job" is to make money. I keep hearing about FUNimation having a responsibility to be faithful to the original script when dubbing and that they were out of place to adapt DBZ into a different show, but in reality, they have full legal jurisdiction to do any of that and would do it if it were in demand and thus profitable, which, as we know, in the vast majority of cases it isn't anymore. The roles you've defined for dubbing companies when handling anime don't exist in reality and are just your personal preferences. They're my preferences too, but it wouldn't feel right to me to talk in absolute terms about what they can and can't do.