Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[Adamant]

Even if one doesn't want to acknowledge the dub as Dragonball that's still what it's called.

...which is part of the problem, really. Had Funimation called their... reversioning, whatever, something other than Dragonball, these conversations would've been a lot easier.

[90sDBZ]

Even if one doesn't want to acknowledge the dub as Dragonball that's still what it's called.

...which is part of the problem, really. Had Funimation called their... reversioning, whatever, something other than Dragonball, these conversations would've been a lot easier.

If Funimation had actually gone ahead and renamed the show there would be even more hate from fans of the original and vice versa and dub fans would be even less willing to try the original. I've actually seen many fans who enjoy both versions and consider them both to still be Dragonball at heart even if there are some big differences. And if they had renamed the Z dub then the Kai dub probably never would have happened as it relied heavily on the overseas popularity of Dragonball Z. They would have had to rename the Kai dub too which would automatically give that an unfaithful stigma by association. And If they still kept the Dragonball name for Kai after renaming Z something else it would cause confusion and dub fans would resent Kai even more.

Besides what do you call it other than Dragonball? The story still revolves largely around the Dragonballs. The Adventures of Goku and Friends or something like that would sound lame.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

It goes to what penguintruth is getting at without pulling in the eyeroll-inducing superiority complex nonsense that hurts the argument more than you can possibly imagine. As a wise cyclops lady once said, "Remember when I told you about always ending your stories a sentence earlier?" The argument is there, valid, reasonable, and is incredibly persuasive, and then gets completely demolished by a complete lack of tact and desire for an actual conversation. Knock off your tired posturing and present your argument like the above.

I think you lack a desire for an actual conversation because you keep vaguely using the word "you" and refuse to directly respond to users who've made arguments against your position. What is the significance of the quote you brought up? To excuse the potential weakness or vagueness of the arguments supporting your position? And what is this complete lack of tact that you refuse to attribute to anyone even generally? Obviously, the implication here is that it's coming from the other side of the argument, but there have been rude manners on both sides, you being a case in point. What you're doing is making a misguided attempt to seem authoritative, but it ends up coming off as rude and does you no service as an admin on this board.



To address the argument you seem to be going with now, no one is saying that the dub and the original version are the same product. FUNimation adapted the orignal anime, changing in it some pretty significant ways. There are obvious differences between them. Can it still be called Dragon Ball Z? Yes, and not just because that's what FUNimation decided to call their product. No one is trying to excuse the changes FUNimation made by bringing up the changes Toei made when adapting the manga. Whether the changes are good or bad, that's entirely up to the individual, and I would argue that most of the changes that both Toei and FUNimation made were bad. The point of the Toei analogy is that when you're adapting something, yes, you change things, but you also retain certain crucial features that link it to its source material. Otherwise, you're creating something entirely new.



The manga, the original anime, and the FUNimation dub are all versions of the same series. None of them is the series, because the moment an adaptation is made, it becomes another version -- the original version, but still another version. They can all be called "Dragon Ball Z", but, as there are significant differences between them, it's sometimes necessary to specify which version you're referring to in discussion.

[Ajay]

The Adventures of Goku and Friends or something like that would sound lame.

I dunno, man. Super Saiyan Adventures would totally be a hit!

[VegettoEX]

I was directly responding to penguintruth and his tone/position. I didn't invoke you at all. I specifically named him by name.

I haven't seen every single response yet in this thread. Other people have responded to you. If I don't have anything else to add, I'm not going to add it. If I do, I will. Please give enough time.

[TheGmGoken]

I will like to what Piccolo said. Since it';s just another version you enjoy. You can still a fan. I don't understand have someone can't be a fan because he's a fan of an inaccurate source. If he went out and took the time to spend HIS money on DBox, Bricks, and Level sets then I think he's a good fan. Yes he might not have read the manga or even notice there was a JPN audio setting. Doesn't make him any less of a fan than you and myself. People come out to Anime Conventions and talk about Funimation's Dub. Why? Because they're fans of it. Also please don't use "true" fan or "real" fan. That make zero sense and you seem very ignorant when saying it.

[JulieYBM]

This "it's the same show! We're all fans of the same product!" mentality is kind of strange, considering that most dub fans can't stand the Japanese version, and most fans of the Japanese version can't stand the dub. Which means an average fan of the dub and an average fan of the original version can't watch the show together, because one of them will always dislike it. That's an interesting definition of "liking the same show", to say the least.

This hits the nail on the head as well as it can ever. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT, and Dragon Ball Kai star Nozawa Masako. What fans of a licensee's dub are watching does not, therefore it is not Dragon Ball. A television show or film isn't just it's underlying story, it's a dramatization. Dramatizations are the sum of many components, a story, actors, music, sound effects, and visuals, whether animated or filmed using live actors. If you replace one component you're radically changed the proverbial bag of trail mix into something entirely different.

This discussion is not about shaming anyone for liking pants or shorts. It's about explaining why a radish is a radish.

[TheGmGoken]

It's about explaining why a radish is a radish.

Just like Dragonball there are different types of Radish which differ(s) from the rest. Some have bigger difference than others. But they're all still Radish aren't they. Just like how all the audios are different. Some are more different that the others. But they're are still Dragonball.

[JulieYBM]

It's about explaining why a radish is a radish.

Just like Dragonball there are different types of Radish which differ(s) from the rest. Some have bigger difference than others. But they're all still Radish aren't they. Just like how all the audios are different. Some are more different that the others. But they're are still Dragonball.

No, they're not. Dubs of Dragon Ball are not Dragon Ball. That's why they're called 'dubs of Dragon Ball' rather than just Dragon Ball. Many have always complained about the editing of violence in Dragon Ball when aired on television but when the topic is re-focused on the editing of the audio suddenly some of these individuals want to play defense council? I smell a fish, Mister Gambini, and I do not like fish.


No, really, I don't like fish so this was a cool place to make that joke.

[Adamant]

If Funimation had actually gone ahead and renamed the show there would be even more hate from fans of the original and vice versa and dub fans would be even less willing to try the original.

Maybe. But it would help differentiate the two without creating this "you're not a real fan unless you like this particular version" tone that has a tendency to pop up.

No Macross fan would go around claiming Robotech fans "aren't really fans of Macross" because... the Robotech fans never claim to be fans of Macross. They claim to be fans of Robotech. And the Macross fans don't deny that. Both groups are in agreement that these aren't the same thing, and being a fan of one doesn't imply being a fan of the other. See how easy that is? See how much more complicated it gets when both the actual product and the reversioning are referred to by the same name?

[TheGmGoken]

It's about explaining why a radish is a radish.

Just like Dragonball there are different types of Radish which differ(s) from the rest. Some have bigger difference than others. But they're all still Radish aren't they. Just like how all the audios are different. Some are more different that the others. But they're are still Dragonball.

No, they're not. Dubs of Dragon Ball are not Dragon Ball. That's why they're called 'dubs of Dragon Ball' rather than just Dragon Ball. Many have always complained about the editing of violence in Dragon Ball when aired on television but when the topic is re-focused on the editing of the audio suddenly some of these individuals want to play defense council? I smell a fish, Mister Gambini, and I do not like fish.


No, really, I don't like fish so this was a cool place to make that joke.

They are STILL Dragonball just in English. The point is that if you're a fan of the ENG dub(Or any dub for that matter) and you don't watch or like the JPN you're STILL a fan. If they make the effort to spend their money and buy shirts and toys. They are fans. Also sorry to sadden you but I've never complained about edits unless it was a 4kids dub of an anime. It's still Dragon Regardless. Dub or sub. The title is Dragonball Z. You can even argue that the anime isn't Dragonball either. Since it's an adaption.

[jjgp1112]

Is the anime Dragon Ball? After all, it's in color, everybody has voices, there are no panels or word bubbles, it's animated and on television, and there are a ton of material that's either not in the manga or changed

[Saago]

Is the anime Dragon Ball? After all, it's in color, everybody has voices, there are no panels or word bubbles, it's animated and on television, and there are a ton of material that's either not in the manga or changed

Well, I know many people who love the Dragon Ball manga and dislike the Dragon Ball anime. Yet I've never seen any of these persons who dislike the Dragon Ball anime demanding to be described as people who like the Dragon Ball anime. And why would they?

[Thanos]

I don't completely agree that the original and English dub are wholly separate products... but I wouldn't say both sides are fans of the same product, either. Now, keep in mind that I'm merely calling a spade a spade here... and fully realize just how smug, pretentious and dismissive it comes across. Now here goes... bear with me--the English dub is, in fact, still Dragon Ball, but a heavily bastardized version. I see it like a bad cover version of a good song. Bad vocals, the instruments don't come out right, but it's still the same song. Same with Dragon Ball. That's why I said FUNimation should've called it "FUNimation's Dragon Ball Z". Still DBZ, but with an indication that things just aren't the same.

Let me just clarify that I am in no way criticizing anyone for preferring the dub, watching it, loving the "Hope of the Universe" speech or the H-word, but by definition, the English dub is a far removed, unfaithful adaptation of the original source material. This point simply cannot be argued. The voices are different, the dialogue is sometimes not even close to the original, the soundtrack is changed, personalities are drastically different, etc.

As Mike stated, I would agree that I don't like how condescending the conversation has to get, but, there you have it.

[Kakarot88]

For many, myself included, who you label as "hardcore" or whatever you want to call them, ie those who like American Z AND Original (Japanese) Z over US Kai it has everything to do with thinking the US cast's performances sound too reserved and the music disjointed more so than nostalgia, at least in my case. Kai also looks bad; the touched up frames stand out like a sore thumb. I gave Kai 2 shots, first on nicktoons then watching it uncut and at no point did it feel like the manga. It felt like nothing, just a cartoon.

Look, for many Kai is great cuz it has the original lines for dialogue and nothing Americanized as well as the old original Japanese Z music. That old music works beautifully with the Japanese cast and sounds terrible, to me, with the US cast and that is just pure preference. Many who dislike Kai have a problem with the music...and Gohan's new girl voice. There is no mystery to it.

But the simple fact is the performance are wildly different than they were in Z. I personally find them to be meh at best, often too reserved or akwardly rythmed and not even matching the voice flaps it just looks like a dub. period. Sure they were green in the funi american Z dub and many scenes actually sound awkward, but it had a certain charm that Kai lacks. Kai just is not as enjoyable becuase the cast sounds bored and stiff.

[Saago]

The things is, I don't really understand what is so controversial about this. Most dub fans openly admit that they dislike the original version, and that the only way they can enjoy the show is with the English dub, yet when somebody who is not a dub fan suggests this very same thing it is offensive? I don't get it. Next thing you know, a person who utterly despises the Dragon Ball anime and the Dragon Ball manga but who, for some reason, enjoys Dragon Ball Evolution will get offended because the rest of the world does not consider him a Dragon Ball Kai fan.

Nobody is ordering people to stop enjoying the dub. This post is not even about whether the dub, as an independent entity, is an interesting product or not. The dub is what it is, enjoy whatever you want. I don't care if somebody enjoys the English dub. I don't care if somebody enjoys a hypothetical translation of the manga that completely re-edits the story and turns Dragon Ball into a shojo series in which Goku is Bulma's father. I don't expect to change that person's opinion. But, at the same time, I think it is only reasonable that that person doesn't expect me to pretend we have the same tastes.

[jjgp1112]

The things is, I don't really understand what is so controversial about this. Most dub fans openly admit that they dislike the original version, and that the only way they can enjoy the show is with the English dub, yet when somebody who is not a dub fan suggests this very same thing it is offensive? I don't get it. Next thing you know, a person who utterly despises the Dragon Ball anime and the Dragon Ball manga but who, for some reason, enjoys Dragon Ball Evolution will get offended because the rest of the world does not consider him a Dragon Ball Kai fan.

Nobody is ordering people to stop enjoying the dub. This post is not even about whether the dub, as an independent entity, is an interesting product or not. The dub is what it is, enjoy whatever you want. I don't care if somebody enjoys the English dub. I don't care if somebody enjoys a hypothetical translation of the manga that completely re-edits the story and turns Dragon Ball into a shojo series in which Goku is Bulma's father. I don't expect to change that person's opinion. But, at the same time, I think it is only reasonable that that person doesn't expect me to pretend we have the same tastes.

That's a bit of a strawman though, because the dub didn't change the story to anywhere near the degree as Evolution or any of the other scenarios you included.

[TheGmGoken]

The things is, I don't really understand what is so controversial about this. Most dub fans openly admit that they dislike the original version, and that the only way they can enjoy the show is with the English dub, yet when somebody who is not a dub fan suggests this very same thing it is offensive? I don't get it. Next thing you know, a person who utterly despises the Dragon Ball anime and the Dragon Ball manga but who, for some reason, enjoys Dragon Ball Evolution will get offended because the rest of the world does not consider him a Dragon Ball Kai fan.

See I think you're misunderstanding. What Truth said was that you;'re not a "True" fan of DBZ if you like the Z dub. Yes I've seen Funi dub lovers say the opposite but overall my experiences have been that everyone is a fan but hate a certain version. They might come off as a jackass but they still won't say you aren't a fan. That;s what so controversial. The fact that saying you're not a fan just cause you like one version over the other or even the fact you just like Funimation's dbz is just bullshit and sounds ignorant and rude.

Regardless of what dub you like. What audio you like. If you take the time to buy the dvds, toys, and shirts. You're a fan. Hell many people dress like DB characters. But just cause they don't like the JPN audio or they only saw the ENG dub suddenly they're not fans of DBZ. You know how dumb that sounds? I guess since the Korean dub is my favorite and I prefer it over JPN audio I'm not a "true" fan. Whatever that is.

[Saago]

That's a bit of a strawman though, because the dub didn't change the story to anywhere near the degree as Evolution or any of the other scenarios you included.

I didn't compare the accuracy of the dub to Dragon Ball Evolution (in fact, I haven't even seen Dragon Ball Evolution) or to the other (jokingly hyperbolic) case. That was not my point.

[Kakarot88]

Regardless of what dub you like. What audio you like. If you take the time to buy the dvds, toys, and shirts. You're a fan. Hell many people dress like DB characters. But just cause they don't like the JPN audio or they only saw the ENG dub suddenly they're not fans of DBZ. You know how dumb that sounds? I guess since the Korean dub is my favorite and I prefer it over JPN audio I'm not a "true" fan. Whatever that is.

This Pure and simple. That's my sentiment exactly, especially when I consider that the author made the series for (1) money and (2) to entertain adolescent male (specifically Japanese) boys. So if you are entertained and spent money really you're a fan cuz that right there accomplished Toriyama's goal. Well said.