Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[theoriginalbilis]

With Robotech, I'm of the opinion, only ones who can judge are those who if given the chance, would've watched Macross subbed when it originally premiered. That doesn't include me, because Robotech premiered before I learned to read. And how many did actually watch that back in 85? (Did at times, but watched Voltron and Star Blazers more back then).

Macross was eventually released locally in it's original form in the 2000s. Since then, it's been even easier for folks to see how different the Robotech adaptation is.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Except B is still A (A #2 if it worries you so much).

But if they only like A #2, they're not A fans, they're A #2 fans.

And that was the point. Congratulations, it appears you finally got the point.

A more honest way of phrasing this would be, "They're not A #1 fans, they're A #2 fans."' The moment A #2 is created, A doesn't stay as A; it becomes A #1 to distinguish it from A #2. Not to make this distinction implies that A is the pure version of the show and A #2 is a corrupted version of it. Hence the "true fan" comments. To use the actual words so we're 100% clear on this, it's not that you're either a fan of Dragon Ball (A) or Dragon Ball as adapted by FUNimation (A #2) -- it's that you're either a fan of Dragon Ball as adapted by Toei (A #1) or Dragon Ball as adapted by FUNimation (A #2) (This is of course ignoring the manga). They're separate versions of the same series, so it's unhelpful and disingenuous to refer to one as "Dragon Ball" and the other as Dragon Ball but in a modified form. The only intrinsic difference is that one was created first.

[TheGmGoken]

No, they're buying stuff they like. Please explain the difference between a Macross toy and a Robotech toy, since you claim to know what these franchises are. Your parallel is not a parallel at all.

Way to come off as a jackass....anyways the difference between the toys aren't that hard. Well at least to me. To casuals it might be harder.

Since then, it's been even easier for folks to see how different the Robotech adaptation is.
Xbox Gamertag: Original Bilis

But if they only like A #2, they're not A fans, they're A #2 fans.

Yes they are. Cause they're the same thing.

Dragon Ball was written with one narrative intention, one voice, the entire time. Batman has been written by hundreds of writers over 70 years with different eras and narrative voices. Funimation doesn't get a narrative voice. It's not their place to provide their own.

Dragonball was written by Toriyama and the anime Toei. That's two voices.

This topic is about the Funi Z dub which is what I'm talking about. People are claiming that it doesn't have the right to be called Dragonball so I'm just defending it by pointing out that it still fulfils Toriyama's intention of delivering pure simplistic entertainment that doesn't take itself too seriously.

You was comparing it to Kai and making it seem like a Kai vs Z debate.


Honestly. The fact that y'all are saying that ENG fans of DBZ aren't DBZ fans is just funny, ignorant, and just "WTF". Sorry if that sound rude but this is the first time I've heard something like that. I guess I'm not a fan of DBZ since I prefer Korean Dub over anything. I mean damn. Y'all acting if the anime was 100% correct to the manga. The fans still love DBZ. They just want to see it in a way they can watch it easiest. Like seriously. Saying they're not fans of DBZ is just an insult to not only them but every fan who have an opinion. Seriously Truth you said DBZ is not in your top 30 anime list. Yet you're more of a fan than someone who have DBZ as the #1 anime but only cause they love the ENG over the JPN. Like really? They could spend more time on DBZ than you do yet you got the nerve to say they aren't fans cause of an stupid ass otaku statement that only JPN audio is good and therefore you're not a fan unless you watched or like the JPN audio the best. Seriously that's worst than ANYTHING I heard on Youtube. Please. Please. Stop thinking that.

[Adamant]

No, they're buying stuff they like. Please explain the difference between a Macross toy and a Robotech toy, since you claim to know what these franchises are. Your parallel is not a parallel at all.

Way to come off as a jackass....anyways the difference between the toys aren't that hard. Well at least to me. To casuals it might be harder.

You are incredibly obviously not aware of the fact that Robotech is largely a dub of Macross, and that "a Macross toy" would be completely indistinguishable from "a Robotech toy" because they didn't exactly redraw the ships and characters when they dubbed it. Stop posting rude and uninformed nonsense relating to this irrelevant tangent already.

[Ajay]

There's been some pretty nasty replies to this thread.

A majority of us grew up on an English dub of the show and I think we would be absolutely shocked to not be called a fan of the show. In my eyes, as long as you're aware of the differences and understand the inaccuracies and what the facts are, it isn't the end of the world if you prefer something arguably inferior to the original.

Will I look down on you for considering Faulconer and the original Z dub better than the Japanese? Yes, absolutely.
I will judge your tastes til the end of time for something like that but I'm not going to try and argue that you aren't a fan of the series so long as you understand the franchise as a whole.

Take Kakarot88 as an example. From what I can tell, he vastly prefers the US version with the Faulconer music included and yet he can appreciate and enjoy the Japanese and understands as much about the franchise as near enough anyone on this forum. Near enough every post shows a balanced opinion and fair treatment towards both versions. He's still a fan regardless of whether you agree with his tastes or not.

That's what I need from someone to consider them truly a fan of the show.

When I see people sprouting nothing but disrespect for the original, it's at that point I stop considering them a fan. If you can't appreciate the origins of your version of the show, then you have no place in the fandom. Ignorance isn't an excuse either.

[dprez]

There's been some pretty nasty replies to this thread.

A majority of us grew up on an English dub of the show and I think we would be absolutely shocked to not be called a fan of the show. In my eyes, as long as you're aware of the differences and understand the inaccuracies and what the facts are, it isn't the end of the world if you prefer something arguably inferior to the original.

Will I look down on you for considering Faulconer and the original Z dub better than the Japanese? Yes, absolutely.
I will judge your tastes til the end of time for something like that but I'm not going to try and argue that you aren't a fan of the series so long as you understand the franchise as a whole.

Take Kakarot88 as an example. From what I can tell, he vastly prefers the US version with the Faulconer music included and yet he can appreciate and enjoy the Japanese and understands as much about the franchise as near enough anyone on this forum. Near enough every post shows a balanced opinion and fair treatment towards both versions. He's still a fan regardless of whether you agree with his tastes or not.

That's what I need from someone to consider them truly a fan of the show.

When I see people sprouting nothing but disrespect for the original, it's at that point I stop considering them a fan. If you can't appreciate the origins or your version of the show, then you have no place in the fandom. Ignorance isn't an excuse either.

This is best post in the thread I have read thus far.

It's when you call someone who is aware of the facts and still enjoys the FUNi dub with the Faulconer score not a true fan. I agree that someone's taste for things can be questioned, and we can disagree and think less of a person based on their opinions, but a fan is a fan. Like I said Dragon Ball is to appealing to be limited to only those who know and can appreciate the original. It should be said that anyone who bashes the original is no fan imo. They may not have to appreciate it, but bashing it is utterly ridiculous.

Fan is short for fanatic afterall...

[goku the krump dancer]

What I don't understand is, how can either version be considered a different show from one another? Certain dialogue changes don't take away from the core events of the story.

In both versions Goku and his brother are killed by Piccolo's new special move.

In both versions Goku had a fierce rivalry with a guy named Vegeta.

In both versions Goku turns into a Super Saiyan because Freeza killed his best friend.

In both versions Vegeta has a child with Bulma named Trunks.

In both versions Gohan kills Cell.

In both versions Boo is destroyed with the move Goku was taught by one of his martial arts teachers.

Really it seems like this discussion is about which voices do you prefer. Which in hindsight really doesn't matter because...

In both versions Goku is a goof ball.

In both versions Vegeta is mean.

In both versions Roshi is a perv.

[dprez]

It's the way the story is told. It's charm and wit is absent in the FUNi dub. The humour, the drama, the tragedy. It's not the same.

[goku the krump dancer]

Well I must be the weirdest DB fan on the planet because I enjoy and get the same vibes from both the japanese and english versions of Dragon Ball.

I like Masako Nozawa and Sean Schemmel equally... heck I like the early Ocean dub voices too.

IDK its all the same to me, despite replacement scores and what not.

[dprez]

No man you are not weird, lol. Dragon Ball is too much fun. There's nothing strange about liking both.

A beautiful piece of art is free to be interpreted and enjoyed by folks with different strokes. It's all about peace and understanding.

[jjgp1112]

I don't see why it's such a requirement to "respect" the original in order to be labeled a fan. The presentation is immaterial in my eyes - if you enjoy the story, characters, etc., you're a fan. It's pretty simple. There's plenty of aspects of the shows I enjoy that I could do without and would change in a heartbeat.

[dprez]

Very true. Dragon Ball is beloved by millions who have never seen the original. They are fans and do benefit what the entire fan base is treated to. You think we would have ever gotten the Dragon Boxes if the Orange season sets didn't sell like hot cakes? There are reasons to appreciate and accept this fan base.

[penguintruth]

What I don't understand is, how can either version be considered a different show from one another? Certain dialogue changes don't take away from the core events of the story.

In both versions Goku and his brother are killed by Piccolo's new special move.

In both versions Goku had a fierce rivalry with a guy named Vegeta.

In both versions Goku turns into a Super Saiyan because Freeza killed his best friend.

In both versions Vegeta has a child with Bulma named Trunks.

In both versions Gohan kills Cell.

In both versions Boo is destroyed with the move Goku was taught by one of his martial arts teachers.

Really it seems like this discussion is about which voices do you prefer. Which in hindsight really doesn't matter because...

In both versions Goku is a goof ball.

In both versions Vegeta is mean.

In both versions Roshi is a perv.

Wow, you mean the bare minimum is the same? The same can be said about 4Kids dubs. The same thing can be said about parody dubs. You're seriously going to argue that because the basic plot elements are there they're the same?

Look, there's obviously no reasoning with some of you. If you can't see the disparity between the Japanese and English versions because they cover roughly the same basic plot elements, then it's pretty clear that Funimation could have done literally anything with the dialogue and you'd still have approved. They could have replaced it with fart noises and you'd be just as satisfied.

Is it me? Am I the only one seeing the gaping chasm of difference here? This screaming maw that separates the show as intended and the show as Funimation "reversioned" it? And if you can see it, how can you in any sense consider the fans of that to be DBZ fans? We're not talking about a few discrepancies here, we're talking about entire episodes worth of material drowned in a bubbling cauldron of hokey jokey invented dialogue!

We're getting to the point where the defense of the English dub is, "Well, the main character is still a guy named Goku who fights a guy named Freeza! SAME SHOW!"?

Game over, man.

[dprez]

Most of us agree with you. It's just that they are not so quick to dismiss the FUNi version of Dragon Ball as being enjoyable.

[theoriginalbilis]

I'm with the others who are trying to keep the vitriolic responses to a minimum.

Though I largely dislike the dub and prefer the Japanese version by heads and bounds, I wouldn't go so far as to call dub fans "not real fans." To me, they're just fans of a different version. Not the true version, but a version. Despite its massive differences, it's still a version/form/permutation/product of the Dragon Ball anime even though it's presentation might be different to the original, purest work. And that comes from someone who's watched pretty much all of it dubbed and subbed.

I do, however, have problems with people who blatantly dismiss the original works (be it the Japanese version or even the manga), those people I wouldn't call fans. You can like the dub all day if you want, but at least show acknowledgment/respect for the damn source material. You wouldn't have your precious FUNimation dub if Toei didn't create the anime in the first place. That said, I personally feel that the Ocean/FUNi dubs keep jussssst enough of the essence/appeal of what makes Dragon Ball so loved/enjoyed all over the world, just in a very different (some would argue inferior) presentation.

A fan to me, is someone, who even if they prefer a particular version or dub, still puts some kind of investment into the franchise they like. Be it monetarily, production-wise (official or fan works), or emotional investment. I can safely say a good 99% of people on this board have invested in Dragon Ball: they've bought the merch, DVDs, or manga, and even engage in somewhat frustrating discussions like this. Even the Kanzenshuu crew, with their outright dislike of the FUNi dub, have experienced it and followed it's production/history, more or less.

In 2013, I'm just glad we fans of the original anime have our Dragon Boxes, our Region A Blu-Rays, and yes, even our DB Kais and it's more accurate dub. People can be happy with the FUNi/Faulconer dub if they choose, dubs like that have pretty much gone away, and luckily, anything Dragon Ball-related dubbed now and in the future will have a somewhat more faithful production. I've had debates/arguments with friends about the dub vs. sub debate, and I've found that hardly any of them ever change their minds (even after giving the Japanese version a decent chance.) At age 27, I don't really care anymore; I just want to watch my damn cartoons in peace.

So... in short, you can like what you want, but be a little more open-minded at least.

I probably have more to say on the matter, but my brain stops working right after 2am...

[TheGmGoken]

No, they're buying stuff they like. Please explain the difference between a Macross toy and a Robotech toy, since you claim to know what these franchises are. Your parallel is not a parallel at all.

Way to come off as a jackass....anyways the difference between the toys aren't that hard. Well at least to me. To casuals it might be harder.

You are incredibly obviously not aware of the fact that Robotech is largely a dub of Macross, and that "a Macross toy" would be completely indistinguishable from "a Robotech toy" because they didn't exactly redraw the ships and characters when they dubbed it. Stop posting rude and uninformed nonsense relating to this irrelevant tangent already.

It's irrelevant? Please tell why you keep asking me to explain myself then if it's so irrelevant. And stop coming off as a jackass. Doesn't help you and just hurts you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxGAkIvZxw4 - The first 45 seconds explains this whole debate. Seriously. Dub fans are STILL fans. If you like it or not. THEY ARE fans

[90sDBZ]

What I don't understand is, how can either version be considered a different show from one another? Certain dialogue changes don't take away from the core events of the story.

In both versions Goku and his brother are killed by Piccolo's new special move.

In both versions Goku had a fierce rivalry with a guy named Vegeta.

In both versions Goku turns into a Super Saiyan because Freeza killed his best friend.

In both versions Vegeta has a child with Bulma named Trunks.

In both versions Gohan kills Cell.

In both versions Boo is destroyed with the move Goku was taught by one of his martial arts teachers.

Really it seems like this discussion is about which voices do you prefer. Which in hindsight really doesn't matter because...

In both versions Goku is a goof ball.

In both versions Vegeta is mean.

In both versions Roshi is a perv.

Wow, you mean the bare minimum is the same? The same can be said about 4Kids dubs. The same thing can be said about parody dubs. You're seriously going to argue that because the basic plot elements are there they're the same?

Look, there's obviously no reasoning with some of you. If you can't see the disparity between the Japanese and English versions because they cover roughly the same basic plot elements, then it's pretty clear that Funimation could have done literally anything with the dialogue and you'd still have approved. They could have replaced it with fart noises and you'd be just as satisfied.

Is it me? Am I the only one seeing the gaping chasm of difference here? This screaming maw that separates the show as intended and the show as Funimation "reversioned" it? And if you can see it, how can you in any sense consider the fans of that to be DBZ fans? We're not talking about a few discrepancies here, we're talking about entire episodes worth of material drowned in a bubbling cauldron of hokey jokey invented dialogue!

We're getting to the point where the defense of the English dub is, "Well, the main character is still a guy named Goku who fights a guy named Freeza! SAME SHOW!"?

Game over, man.

4kids One Piece removed entire story arcs. Funi never did that with DBZ. 4kids One Piece replaced death with getting sent to a dungeon. Funi never did that. 4kids One Piece changed major plot elements like Luffy using his sweat to beat Crocodile instead of his blood. Funi never did anything like that. Although there were big dialogue changes the story still revolved largely around the Dragonballs so that's more than reason enough for it to be called Dragonball in my books. It's not your Dragonball clearly but is still a form of Dragonball.

[Thanos]

AjayLikesGaming pretty much won this thread.

I think the problem here is that everyone is too concerned with bringing their point across and not admitting that everyone has good points. Myself included.

But I find myself agreeing with, well... most people in this thread to some extent, even the ones who are arguing against each other.

Yes, I would say that FUNimation's version is not a "true" version of the series. But fans of this version are no less fans of the franchise than those of the original Japanese. I think the issue is that everyone seems to confuse how much someone likes the series with the legitimacy of their fandom. They're not the same concept.

For instance, someone who thinks the original is just okay and doesn't like the dub is not a bigger fan of the franchise than someone who is obsessed with the dub. That's simply illogical. They're different versions of the same thing. Yes, we get it. The dub does not represent an "official" adaptation of the series, but that doesn't mean that a dub fan's fandom isn't legitimate. I would even go as far as to say someone who otherwise shows no interest in Dragon Ball other than the Abridged Series could be considered, to some degree, a fan. Because why not? Same plots, same characters... in fact, unlike the dub, the Abridged Series uses the original score by Kikuchi. There's nothing legitimate or official about this version, but it is a representation of the series. Good or bad.

Whether you prefer the Penguin Classics version or original Arabic version of Arabian Nights, you're still a fan of the same book. The dialogue and narrative have been reconstructed and some of the analogies have been altered to be easier to relate to for modern readers, but it's still the same book at the end of the day.

[goku the krump dancer]

Post

Wow, you mean the bare minimum is the same? The same can be said about 4Kids dubs. The same thing can be said about parody dubs. You're seriously going to argue that because the basic plot elements are there they're the same?

Look, there's obviously no reasoning with some of you. If you can't see the disparity between the Japanese and English versions because they cover roughly the same basic plot elements, then it's pretty clear that Funimation could have done literally anything with the dialogue and you'd still have approved. They could have replaced it with fart noises and you'd be just as satisfied.

Is it me? Am I the only one seeing the gaping chasm of difference here? This screaming maw that separates the show as intended and the show as Funimation "reversioned" it? And if you can see it, how can you in any sense consider the fans of that to be DBZ fans? We're not talking about a few discrepancies here, we're talking about entire episodes worth of material drowned in a bubbling cauldron of hokey jokey invented dialogue!

We're getting to the point where the defense of the English dub is, "Well, the main character is still a guy named Goku who fights a guy named Freeza! SAME SHOW!"?

Game over, man.

You act like Funimation added in there own pieces of animation into episodes. You keep going on and on about "hockey jokey dialogue" as if "I call this the weasel's last fart" is any less cheesy/corny/wtf as "this saiyan armor is mondo cool"

If anything the anime period isn't true to the manga because of filler and what not.

The core essence of the show is carried over in the Funimation dub. Vegeta gives the same respect speech for Goku in the Funidub as he did in the Japanese version though it may not be word for word. You make it seem like while Piccolo is laying, dying next to Gohan he's talking about his love for cheeseburgers in the English dub instead of admitting that Gohan was changing him on the inside.

This isn't like how the original Full Metal Alchemist anime is different from the Manga whereas FMA: BrotherHood is the true adaption but you're treating it like it is. With this somewhat superiority complex you seem have there really seems to be no reasoning with you. In my post above I said liked both dubs of the cartoon.

[jjgp1112]

I know Funi pulled a huge faux pas with Vegeta's death and how they tied to make him someone who was "corrupted" by Frieza, which hurts his character a bit...but then how do you justify Toei's filler scenes after he's brought back to life that blatantly contradict his character motivations, or them completely nullifying Vegeta's character development when Trunks dies? If you watch those scenes without ever having read the manga, are you "not a true Dragon Ball fan" then, too?