Why did FUNI never mix Bruce Faulconer's music with Kai?

[Ringworm128]

Wasn't it because they just didn't want him? I've even heard that they told Menza not to listen to Faulconers score.

[Aoi]

Thanks for your answers everyone. You cleared it all up for me. By the way, I believe that the German dub did compose their own music for the series. But I'm basing that on the movies. I never saw the series in that language.

Regarding the Faulconer score, I didn't want it to replace the Kai score. What I had hoped was for FUNI to add a sepearate track. It was not compose any new music either. Instead, to just mix and insert the old Faulconer tracks to the episodes. I felt that this would take less time and a lot less effort. But, it seems that FUNI really wants to move on from their original dub.

[Aoi]

One last thing. Considering what I've read on this thread about FUNI really pushing for an accurate dub. Would it be in FUNI's business interest to re-dub portions of the original Dragon Ball Z anime? I'm assuming that they wouldn't, but I'm curious to see what others think.

[TheBlackPaladin]

One last thing. Considering what I've read on this thread about FUNI really pushing for an accurate dub. Would it be in FUNI's business interest to re-dub portions of the original Dragon Ball Z anime? I'm assuming that they wouldn't, but I'm curious to see what others think.

Eh.....not really. I--and I'm sure many others--would certainly have liked them to do that. I love the Kai dub, but in an ideal world where everything works out perfectly, I would have preferred they just did a complete and total redub of DBZ with the care and accuracy they displayed in the Kai dub.

The thing is, there's no financial justification for them to go back and redub an almost three hundred episode-long show and thirteen movies. It's not a "FUNimation's only interested in money" thing, but rather, a business thing. FUNimation is a company after all, it is a business. Basic economics dictate that if a company loses enough money, they risk going out of business. Doing a complete or even partial redub of DBZ would require paying the voice actors, voice directors, English script writers, audio engineers (no small fee for almost three hundred episodes and thirteen movies) ....not to mention the money needed to package, market, and distribute the DVDs and Blu-rays. On top of that, it would be for a niche of fans that's smaller compared to the ones who grew up with the FUNimation dub and don't care about its inaccuracies and shortcomings, and just want to watch the show they grew up with.

That's why Kai was the golden opportunity for them. It technically was a new show that just happened to have a lot in common with an older one. Since it was new, there was financial justification to dub it. Therefore, while the Kai dub is not strictly a redub, many fans consider it to be loosely similar to a redub.

By the way, I believe that the German dub did compose their own music for the series. But I'm basing that on the movies. I never saw the series in that language.

For the TV series, they kept the original music apart from dubbing some of the Japanese songs into German. Same thing with DB and GT. As for the movies...it's debatable whether or not that counts. As I understand it, they kept the original music for all of the movies except for the last two, which they merged together into one movie and rerecorded the music for. However, in that instance, it was just that, a rerecording. They rerecorded Kikuchi's music with another orchestra (I think possibly a MIDI/synthesized one, not sure)...and placed different pieces of Kikuchi's music in different places. That struck me as strange, not to mention a largely unneeded expense...but eh, it is what it is.

[Fennekin]

I'd like to think it's because they realized replacement music is an outdated, abhorrent practice, and that Faulconer's score isn't great, either.

But let's face it, they probably just didn't have the rights to it anymore, or some other kind of snag.

That Kai has a fairly accurate script was probably just on a whim, too. But I'm a bit cynical when it comes to this.

It really was not on a whim. As someone who's talked with several people closely involved with the production of Kai, they legitimately wanted it to be closer to the original. Believe it or not? Sabat loves Dragonball and was very excited to have a much more accurate dub.

Sabat fought for it to be a more accurate production.

Then I can honestly say it's because of Sabat I even got into DBZ since Z Kai was what got me into it (I did know about DBZ beforehand but never really got into it until Z Kai).

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'd like to think it's because they realized replacement music is an outdated, abhorrent practice, and that Faulconer's score isn't great, either.

But let's face it, they probably just didn't have the rights to it anymore, or some other kind of snag.

That Kai has a fairly accurate script was probably just on a whim, too. But I'm a bit cynical when it comes to this.

It really was not on a whim. As someone who's talked with several people closely involved with the production of Kai, they legitimately wanted it to be closer to the original. Believe it or not? Sabat loves Dragonball and was very excited to have a much more accurate dub.

Sabat fought for it to be a more accurate production.

Then I can honestly say it's because of Sabat I even got into DBZ since Z Kai was what got me into it (I did know about DBZ beforehand but never really got into it until Z Kai).

I've often noticed a correlation between the quality of the dub and Sabat's control over it...more specifically, it seems that the more input he had into the overall creative direction of the dub, the better the dub turned out.

[Kakarot88]

It was cheaper. period.

More answers though:

Funimation no longer had the rights to Bruce Faulconer's score, when he left he retained the proprietary rights in his work BUT not the right to have his work stripped from the product, I believe he even still gets royalties...pretty good deal for him ANYWAYS...that's why if you own the orange bricks the old ocean dub that was in season 1 and half of 2 was redone with the Funimation, Sabat cast, but not the music (as in not redone with new Faulconer music nor retaining the original Ocean dub music) and new music was done there.

Ok so Kai also DID HAVE NEW MUSIC. Kenji Yamamoto's new age electric guitar music with such rip offs included as the Terminator soundtrack which sounded more current than the old Z so no new music was needed for the American cast.

Incidentaly with all the techno sounds in some instances Yamomoto's score sounded quite similar to Faulconer's tracks SO no new music was needed However, when that new music got pulled because of plagarism it'd have been too costly to use different compositions or a new score so they just re inserted the 80s music of Z. Again cost effectiveness. So now we again have mismatched music to acting

Lastly, it became a great marketing scheme for Funimation to hype the closeness to the manga with the old music because these products are selling to the niche who wanted Kai COMPLETELY different from the Toonami broadcast of Z. By adding to this dichotomy Funimation sold more. Had they re inserted Faulconer or any other non Japanese created music, well in all likelihood it seems those who do like Kai would complain incessantly about it. ...but the take away ironic thing is that Kai is NOT what Kai was supposed to be anyways because the updated music was stripped from the product

[Blade]

What I'd like to know is why Funi didn't allow Faulconer to score GT. Maybe he was just too expensive for them or something.

His relationship with Funimation had more or less broken down at that point. They didn't like him, they didn't want to work with him again, he was expensive and they wanted to go in another direction with GT.

He further soured things by going public and crying foul about not being asked back. He backed a fan petition to have him re-hired for GT which was more or less totally ignored, and has since bitterly wrangled with Funimation over rights and royalties in several court cases.

There was simply no way that they were going to ask him back for the re-dub of the Saiyan and Namek sagas, the bridges were well and truly burnt.

[Fennekin]

What I'd like to know is why Funi didn't allow Faulconer to score GT. Maybe he was just too expensive for them or something.

His relationship with Funimation had more or less broken down at that point. They didn't like him, they didn't want to work with him again, he was expensive and they wanted to go in another direction with GT.

He further soured things by going public and crying foul about not being asked back. He backed a fan petition to have him re-hired for GT which was more or less totally ignored, and has since bitterly wrangled with Funimation over rights and royalties in several court cases.

There was simply no way that they were going to ask him back for the re-dub of the Saiyan and Namek sagas, the bridges were well and truly burnt.

And this is why it's so much easier just to buy the rights to the original Japanese music, which thankfully they did with Z Kai.

[cRookie_Monster]

What I'd like to know is why Funi didn't allow Faulconer to score GT. Maybe he was just too expensive for them or something.

His relationship with Funimation had more or less broken down at that point. They didn't like him, they didn't want to work with him again, he was expensive and they wanted to go in another direction with GT.

He further soured things by going public and crying foul about not being asked back. He backed a fan petition to have him re-hired for GT which was more or less totally ignored, and has since bitterly wrangled with Funimation over rights and royalties in several court cases.

There was simply no way that they were going to ask him back for the re-dub of the Saiyan and Namek sagas, the bridges were well and truly burnt.

Actually, I wouldn't say Faulconer Productions was expensive....by any stretch. I think he's said himself we didn't exactly have a big budget. That being said, I bet it's probably still cheaper to use the Japanese score than have a new score written and pay royalties on it.

As to why Faulconer wasn't rehired, you have to remember that back in the day the Faulconer score got very bad reviews on the web. The people old enough to be posting were mostly teens or older fans more familiar with the Ocean and Japanese scores already. I used to search for "Faulconer" on the web and only see cursing and hatred.
The staff at Funi didn't particularly like Faulconer either. I probably shouldn't get into why on a public forum... But yeah as you guys have heard more directly, the cast was restless with the way the score was going. I had conversations with Sabat and Schemmel about this way back in 2000 where they gave me some candid criticisms of the score.

So they decided not to rehire Faulconer for GT....and he gets people to mass mail Funimation...then SUES THEM FOR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! Funimation counter sues.
Search with these terms: Faulconer Productions Corporation court Funimation
and you'll find some crazy records of what went down. 2003-2006 they were in court battling over music written by some young recent college grads, with millions of dollars at stake

Then nobody won. Funimation still has the copyrights, but I think they have to pay Faulconer royalties regardless. Think they want to do that? Hell no.

Also a big factor is Barry Watson left the company. He's the one who directed the old dub, hired Faulconer, managed the score, etc. With him gone, no-one is really attached to his ideas of Americanizing the sound. Different people managing the show.



Here's a link to a thread where I first discovered all this crazy legal stuff.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 12&t=16880
There's links to pages proving it all, and quote of how much was being threatened...etc.

[ABED]

That's really interesting that few in FUNi actually liked the score. The fact that a company would put out a product they didn't believe in fully is irritating.

I know the Levy and the Faulconer scores were used because that was the industry standard at the time, and it was thought that kids could have no moments of silence, but how much of this was backed up by good studies? I'm currently rewatching Power Rangers, and one of the things that bugs me is the never ending score. It's as if they think kids won't know if they're supposed to laugh unless there's music.

[TheBlackPaladin]

That's really interesting that few in FUNi actually liked the score. The fact that a company would put out a product they didn't believe in fully is irritating.

Well, the impression I get is that there were people in FUNi who liked it, but that the people who did like it were people in "executive" positions. In other words, people making decisions about the dub on a business basis rather than a creative one. As I recall, FUNimation may have also stood to gain from a replacement score due to an alternative royalties agreement. Gen Fukunaga did mention in an interview that literally changing as little as a second of the music would entail a different royalties agreement. I'm not sure if FUNimation themselves would gain money as a result of an alternate score (I would think the royalties would just go to Faulconer), but the decision to replace the alternate music score had a lot to do with money based on the interviews I read.

However, I think it occurred to FUNimation once they started releasing so many other anime titles with the original score that an alternate score was not a necessity to make it successful in the North American market. I would have preferred they came to that conclusion to begin with, but, whatever...better late than never, forgive and forget, I say.

[ABED]

That's really interesting that few in FUNi actually liked the score. The fact that a company would put out a product they didn't believe in fully is irritating.

Well, the impression I get is that there were people in FUNi who liked it, but that the people who did like it were people in "executive" positions. In other words, people making decisions about the dub on a business basis rather than a creative one. As I recall, FUNimation may have also stood to gain from a replacement score due to an alternative royalties agreement. Gen Fukunaga did mention in an interview that literally changing as little as a second of the music would entail a different royalties agreement. I'm not sure if FUNimation themselves would gain money as a result of an alternate score (I would think the royalties would just go to Faulconer), but the decision to replace the alternate music score had a lot to do with money based on the interviews I read.

However, I think it occurred to FUNimation once they started releasing so many other anime titles with the original score that an alternate score was not a necessity to make it successful in the North American market. I would have preferred they came to that conclusion to begin with, but, whatever...better late than never, forgive and forget, I say.

I get that but I'm saying that the people in charge should also like it from a creative perspective.

[TheBlackPaladin]

That's really interesting that few in FUNi actually liked the score. The fact that a company would put out a product they didn't believe in fully is irritating.

Well, the impression I get is that there were people in FUNi who liked it, but that the people who did like it were people in "executive" positions. In other words, people making decisions about the dub on a business basis rather than a creative one. As I recall, FUNimation may have also stood to gain from a replacement score due to an alternative royalties agreement. Gen Fukunaga did mention in an interview that literally changing as little as a second of the music would entail a different royalties agreement. I'm not sure if FUNimation themselves would gain money as a result of an alternate score (I would think the royalties would just go to Faulconer), but the decision to replace the alternate music score had a lot to do with money based on the interviews I read.

However, I think it occurred to FUNimation once they started releasing so many other anime titles with the original score that an alternate score was not a necessity to make it successful in the North American market. I would have preferred they came to that conclusion to begin with, but, whatever...better late than never, forgive and forget, I say.

I get that but I'm saying that the people in charge should also like it from a creative perspective.

*Sigh*....Yeah, that definitely would be nice, but it has long been a staple of show biz that (most) executives don't think creatively. They think in terms of numbers, graphs, and survey data.

[ABED]

*Sigh*....Yeah, that definitely would be nice, but it has long been a staple of show biz that (most) executives don't think creatively. They think in terms of numbers, graphs, and survey data.

True, but I still wonder about the quality of their data, and if it's based off of weak assumptions that became standard years ago. One of the things I liked about Steve Jobs was he didn't want to put out products made from polls and customer surveys. He wanted to make products that he was proud of.

[Blu-ray_Mistress]

Personally, I thought the reason was because it was a different and wanted to fans to treat it as such which was why I think they didn't include the Bruce Faulconer music w/ Kai.