Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[KentalSSJ6]

Ginyu thought Goku may already be faster than him even though he esitimated his power level was at 85,000 compared to his 120,000. Birus probably thought Goku's body may make up for it. If Ginyu can predict Goku power, then Birus can do it better.

Anyone who says this statement is wrong is in denial. There is no reason to think it is wrong. There is no reason to bring it up. You could easily have written in that Goku may be stronger than Freeza in base and is still unimpressive.

He's all yours Ozaru.

WAIT...Let me get some popcorn for this.

[Gogeta8001]

Ginyu thought Goku may already be faster than him even though he esitimated his power level was at 85,000 compared to his 120,000. Birus probably thought Goku's body may make up for it. If Ginyu can predict Goku power, then Birus can do it better.

Anyone who says this statement is wrong is in denial. There is no reason to think it is wrong. There is no reason to bring it up. You could easily have written in that Goku may be stronger than Freeza in base and is still unimpressive.

He's all yours Ozaru.

What's really underwhelming is that you think your proving a point by playing the "denial card".

I just listed possible explanations as to why Billis would make that statement. And after all, this third rate movie doesn't indvalidate what was said in the manga. You guys can live with this Frieza > Base Saiyans mentallity all you want even though the manga says otherwise http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634

Don't take it from me though, i'm in denial. Excuse me now while I take my medication.

[dbzfan7]

Ginyu thought Goku may already be faster than him even though he esitimated his power level was at 85,000 compared to his 120,000. Birus probably thought Goku's body may make up for it. If Ginyu can predict Goku power, then Birus can do it better.

Anyone who says this statement is wrong is in denial. There is no reason to think it is wrong. There is no reason to bring it up. You could easily have written in that Goku may be stronger than Freeza in base and is still unimpressive.

He's all yours Ozaru.

What's really underwhelming is that you think your proving a point by playing the "denial card".

I just listed possible explanations as to why Billis would make that statement. And after all, this third rate movie doesn't indvalidate what was said in the manga. You guys can live with this Freeza > Base Saiyans mentallity all you want even though the manga says otherwise http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634

Don't take it from me though, i'm in denial. Excuse me now while I take my medication.

Yep it is denial. Lines in movies can easily be re-written. You take what's stated at face value. Anything else is just trying weasel away from a statement.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Any credibility that guy had went out the window when he claimed base Goku > Kaioshin . Kaioshin flat out states that he's only surpassed by the SSJs.

[dbzfan7]

Any credibility that guy had went out the window when he claimed base Goku > Kaioshin . Kaioshin flat out states that he's only surpassed by the SSJs.

I know right Hell Kibito in the Daizenshuu is already stated to be able to give Base Gohan a really tough fight as long as he doesn't use SSJ. Kaioshin is much stronger than him. Kaioshin is described as far superior to Piccolo in power. If Base Saiyans were so powerful then why would Kibito be compared to near Gohan base and Kaioshin be compared to Piccolo. If Base Saiyans were stronger then that means Kibito>Kaioshin which isn't true.

[Gogeta8001]

What makes Base Goku > Kaioshin ridiculous?

It's not ridiculous when Kaioshin insists on fighting Yakon with all of the group only to find out that Base Goku was capable of easily beating the same person he was crapping his pants at.

Then again, i'm just in denial for staying true to the manga and not using some third rate movie as my basis. Stupid, stupid, me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What makes Base Goku > Kaioshin ridiculous?

It's not ridiculous when Kaioshin insists on fighting Yakon with all of the group only to find out that Base Goku was capable of easily beating the same person he was crapping his pants at.

Then again, i'm just in denial for staying true to the manga and not using some third rate movie as my basis. Stupid, stupid, me.

Kaioshin is simply paranoid. Well lets see here, Goku isn't THAT much stronger than Gohan, and it's stated that Kibito, someone faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar weaker than Kaioshin, is roughly on par with Gohan. Well, Toriyama was deeply involved with Battle of Gods so I certainly wouldn't call it a third rate movie. I'd honestly love to know why the manga is above Battle of Gods, when the manga doesn't exactly defy what's stated.

[Kaboom]

Then again, i'm just in denial for staying true to the manga and not using some third rate movie as my basis. Stupid, stupid, me.

Come on, are these types of comments really necessary? We get it, you don't agree with what Battle of Gods presented.

[Gogeta8001]

Then again, i'm just in denial for staying true to the manga and not using some third rate movie as my basis. Stupid, stupid, me.

Come on, are these types of comments really necessary? We get it, you don't agree with what Battle of Gods presented.

I'm sorry. It's just i'm getting frustrated from all of this logic being used here.

I'm just trying to point the flaws in what people here are saying. I might have come off as arrogant or something like that but that happens when i'm passionate in what i'm saying. Nothing personal to anyone really.

@TheMightyOzaru
Like I said many times before. What's said in other guides/movies etc... doesn't take precedent over the manga. The Daiz might have said that but clearly the manga doesn't agree with that.

It's almost like when they put Saiyan Saga Piccolo at 3,500 even though Piccolo said Gohans powers would surpass him if he got enraged (Gohan is 2,500 while enraged).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Unless the Daizenshuu directly contradict the manga, there is no reason to disregard them. It's clear, however, that you won't be budge on your position despite the copious amounts of evidence to support Freeza > base Goku so I'm done. I don't want to be here all night. If Gohan were fresh, yeah, he might be able surpass Piccolo. The thing is though, Gohan was fatigued. 3,500 and 2,800 work just fine. Especially when you consider the fact that, you know, Piccolo never states this during the fight with Nappa.

[Gogeta8001]

Unless the Daizenshuu directly contradict the manga, there is no reason to disregard them. It's clear, however, that you won't be budge on your position despite the copious amounts of evidence to support Freeza > base Goku so I'm done. I don't want to be here all night.

No, I think it's you that won't budge your position my friend.

I explained to you on he previous pages why Base Goku > Kaioshin > Frieza yet you constantly disregarded all of that. That and Base Kids giving #18 a good fight is all the evidence I need.

But even after all this, I highly doubt anyone is going to consider changing their positions when it's laid out clearly. I guess it can't be helped.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Unless the Daizenshuu directly contradict the manga, there is no reason to disregard them. It's clear, however, that you won't be budge on your position despite the copious amounts of evidence to support Freeza > base Goku so I'm done. I don't want to be here all night.

No, I think it's you that won't budge your position my friend.

I explained to you on he previous pages why Base Goku > Kaioshin > Freeza yet you constantly disregarded all of that. That and Base Kids giving #18 a good fight is all the evidence I need.

But even after all this, I highly doubt anyone is going to consider changing their positions when it's laid out clearly. I guess it can't be helped.

My position is well supported by facts from guidebooks and statements made by characters. Your position is supported by the disregarding of the guidebooks and weaseling your way out of statements to make things the way you want them to be. Pardon me if I don't find your "evidence" to be very convincing. The manga doesn't contradict what Beers or the guide books say. Anyway, I'm done for the night. I'm sure someone else would be kind enough to continue this in my place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because this whole thread is a mess right now... Can you repeat why base Saiyans > Freeza, Gogeta8001? Because I'm lost in this debate.

[dbzfan7]

Because this whole thread is a mess right now... Can you repeat why base Saiyans > Freeza, Gogeta8001? Because I'm lost in this debate.

Here is what he posted as his argument. He also says Base Kids=18

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634

[Kaboom]

Any credibility that guy had went out the window when he claimed [whatever]

I just noticed this comment now, too. We really don't need to be saying stuff like this.

How many times do I have to explain that this isn't supposed to be about arguing to prove things as "right" or "wrong?" It's supposed to be about making power level lists as a quasi-art form, and giving friendly critique on the consistency and formation of the lists themselves. It's NOT the place to have debates over the same tired old in-universe crap.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because this whole thread is a mess right now... Can you repeat why base Saiyans > Freeza, Gogeta8001? Because I'm lost in this debate.

Here is what he posted as his argument. He also says Base Kids=18

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634

I see. So...

• About the Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta:
  We know that Gohan didn't get any stronger, unlike Goku & Vegeta. While Goku & Vegeta are stronger, they are not very far in power from Gohan, since Goku says that he could use Fusion with Vegeta or Gohan. Which means that Goku & Vegeta > Gohan only when they are in the same form.
• About the Goten & Trunks:
  It is obvious that they are weaker than the adult Saiyans. However, SS Goten & SS Trunks seem to be good sparring partners for SS Gohan & SS Vegeta, which means that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta > Goten & Trunks only when they are in the same form.
• About Piccolo:
  Back in Cell arc, Piccolo is implied to have surpassed Suppressed Perfect Cell (the one Super Trunks fought), and maybe even 50% SS Goku, because after training inside RoSaT, since he asks Goku if he believes that Piccolo has any chance against Cell, to which Goku answers no. Piccolo is much weaker than SS Goku, but much stronger than base Goku. Now, fast forward to Boo arc. Both Goku & Piccolo were training during those years, and since we know that Goku didn't grow many times stronger (since he is still not far from Gohan's level, who didn't train at all, but only stronger instead of weaker than him), so Piccolo should still be stronger than the base Saiyans. As for Dabra calling him trash, while saying that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta hide valuable energy, everyone was suppressed to zero, so Dabra & Babidi could somehow tell that the Saiyans were hiding valuable energy (since they can transform up to Super Saiyan 2, and Goku up to Super Saiyan 3), but they obviously couldn't measure their power, since they believed that Pui Pui should be enough to beat all 3 of them. So, it doesn't support the base Saiyans > Piccolo.
• About #18:
  We know she is weaker than the base Saiyans & Piccolo, but there is no evidence to support that she is anywhere close to the base Saiyans. Even though Vegeta says that he is still the strongest in the tournament in base (which would mean that base Vegeta > Piccolo & #18), it's more than likely that it's Vegeta acting high & mighty like he does all the time, especially based on facts that make him weaker than Piccolo. And as for her fight with base "Mighty Mask", she wasn't going all out, since she thought she was fighting a random weakling. The Super Saiyan kids though seem to be stronger than her, since a suppressed ki blast from SS Trunks was considered dangerous for her.
• About Kaioshin:
  Kaioshin is talking about Goku in general there. He knows that Goku can get stronger by turning Super Saiyan, so he could be talking about Super Saiyan Goku being above him. Let's also not forget that Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans.
• About Pui Pui:
  Kaioshin said that Pui Pui is strong not because he sensed his power, he concluded that he was strong because Babidi only collects strong warriors. He doesn't say that the Saiyans or him are weaker, just that they should all be careful because if they are not careful, they could get damage & if they get damage, Boo will get more energy. He is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. However, it turns out that Pui Pui is a weakling. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui.
• About Yakon:
  Again, Kaioshin says again that the Saiyans should be careful against Yakon, and suggests to team up against him. It turns out that Yakon is dangerous mostly because he sucks light energy, making everything dark, and giving advantage to Yakon, which increases the possibilities for Goku to get damage, and give Boo energy. Like before, he is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. It turns out that SS Goku is much stronger than Yakon, and 2 base Saiyans would be enough to beat him. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Yakon.
• About Freeza:
  We know that Super Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo >>> Freeza in Boo arc. However, there is no solid evidence that the base Saiyans are stronger than Full Power Freeza in the manga. And the BoG comes and states that the base Saiyans are weaker than Full Power Freeza. Beers says that base Goku doesn't look like he is strong enough to have beaten Freeza, and that he seems like he can power-up by turning Super Saiyan. Goku doesn't argue, and Kaio agrees with Beers. So, Freeza is stronger than the base Saiyans.

[KentalSSJ6]

And that class, is how you trump a power level thread.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Any credibility that guy had went out the window when he claimed [whatever]

I just noticed this comment now, too. We really don't need to be saying stuff like this.

How many times do I have to explain that this isn't supposed to be about arguing to prove things as "right" or "wrong?" It's supposed to be about making power level lists as a quasi-art form, and giving friendly critique on the consistency and formation of the lists themselves. It's NOT the place to have debates over the same tired old in-universe crap.

Sure I could have phrased that statement better, but it doesn't change the fact that he's wrong. Kaioshin stated himself that he is only surpassed by the Super Saiyans. I'm all for constructive and creative critiquing, but there are things that are just flat out wrong.

[Victorious]

When is it stated Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans?

Babidi seems to be familiar with the realms of Kaioshin's power and thinks Pui Pui will solo the Z Senshi including Kaioshin. Pui Pui got wrecked by base Vegeta

Also Kaioshin suggested to team up against Yakkon as was brought up before. Why would he do that if he's stronger than Yakkon?


The only thing to me that would imply Kaioshin > base Saiyans is Kamiccolo's Cell Game strength being near SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks in the Cell Games based on that panel and manga cover showing Piccolo standing up about as damaged as Vegeta and Trunks and tired MSSJ Goku and the humans as broken fodder on the ground. Along with Kaioshin holding down SSJ2 Teen Gohan so Yamu and Spopo could suck his energy. A base Saiyan tier guy holding down an SSJ2 is just too much IMO, but I guess no more absurd then Tenshinhan who should be fodder to base Saiyans in the android saga holding down Semi Cell.




Anyway, without that Cell Games panel you could end up something like this

base Goku ~ Yakkon >> base Vegeta >>> Pui Pui >> Kaioshin >>> Kamiccolo post RoSaT / Buu saga >>> Kamiccolo pre RoSaT = Android #17.

would make sense with the Saiyans thinking they can win the tourney in base, along with Kaioshin's fear of Babidi's henchmen but superiority to Kamiccolo, and also Babidi's confidence in his henchmen, and the whole base Saiyans having marvelous energy while Piccolo being labeled as trash.



Also the Kibito being near base Gohan stuff sounds like nonsense since base Gohan could wield the Zeta sword and Kibito couldnt even budge it.

I'll point this out again. "Why bother have them saying his base power is below Freeza if it weren't true?" Why bother with the statement? Captain Ginyu was able to get a pretty good estimate for Goku, so I think Birus could do better. Also nobody argues with this statement. Nobody.

I just watched the first part of the movie right now.

As you can see from the movie, Kaio is scared out of his mind when he sees Billis. He most likely said that to appease him. Not to mention that Kaio is the same person that suggests that it would be a good idea for Goku to hide in his house, as if Billis is a clueless moron.

And as for Billis's statement, all he did was check out Goku's muscle mass. He seems to be making that statement based on appearence rather than actual power.

Then again, BoG is a plot ridden movie despite it being "canon". I'll take the evidence we have in the manga over what was said in that movie any day.

Bills statement about Goku "not being able to beat Freeza as he is" looked like it had to do with him checking out Goku's physical appearance [non SSJ] rather than his ki. Bills would not need to look at Goku's hair and check out his muscles in order to sense his power. He could do that from far far away. Bills also saw the footage of Goku's fight with Freeza and commented on Goku's gold hair. IMO Bills was not sensing Goku but physically examining him and realizing he's simply not in SSJ. Of course that POV alone doesnt mean Freeza couldnt beat base Goku but I just think the Bill's comment is about Goku's design and not him sensing Goku's battle power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Babidi seems to be familiar with the realms of Kaioshin's power and thinks Pui Pui will solo the Z Senshi including Kaioshin. Pui Pui got wrecked by base Vegeta

Also Kaioshin suggested to team up against Yakkon as was brought up before. Why would he do that if he's stronger than Yakkon?

Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin by himself to avenge his father, he didn't send Pui Pui & Yakon to kill him. And like I've already said before countless times, Kaioshin wasn't afraid that Pui Pui & Yakon would kill him or the Saiyans, he was overestimating them because Babidi only chooses strong warriors, and was afraid that the Saiyans would get careless & get damage from them, which would bring Boo one step closer to his revival, which is what Kaioshin is truly afraid of. Kaioshin wanted them to avoid getting any damage at all. However, it turned out that Pui Pui & Yakon were weaklings.

Bills statement about Goku "not being able to beat Freeza as he is" looked like it had to do with him checking out Goku's physical appearance [non SSJ] rather than his ki. Bills would not need to look at Goku's hair and check out his muscles in order to sense his power. He could do that from far far away. Bills also saw the footage of Goku's fight with Freeza and commented on Goku's gold hair. IMO Bills was not sensing Goku but physically examining him and realizing he's simply not in SSJ. Of course that POV alone doesnt mean Freeza couldnt beat base Goku but I just think the Bill's comment is about Goku's design and not him sensing Goku's battle power.

Beers said that Goku doesn't look strong enough to beat Freeza, but he looks like he can power-up by becoming Super Saiyan. Goku didn't argue, and Kaio said that Beers was correct. Which means that base Goku really is weaker than Freeza.