Goku kept SSJ God's power.

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kuartus4
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by kuartus4 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:13 pm

But goku had been expecting a kid buu tier opponent going into the fight, and after the fight goku told uub that he was as amazing as he expected. Doesn't that mean uub was kid buu tier in their fight? Meaning goku's base was kid buu tier as well. Which would mean goku could curbstomp uub even with kaiokenx2, regardless of any god power.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by rereboy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:10 pm

kuartus4 wrote:But goku had been expecting a kid buu tier opponent going into the fight, and after the fight goku told uub that he was as amazing as he expected. Doesn't that mean uub was kid buu tier in their fight? Meaning goku's base was kid buu tier as well. Which would mean goku could curbstomp uub even with kaiokenx2, regardless of any god power.
He was expecting Uub to have Kid Buu's potential. I don't think he had any idea of how much power Uub could actually bring out without any sort of proper training and at that age. It was possible that Uub could bring out enough power to even challenge Goku seriously and be a serious candidate to win the tournament, which is why Goku stated all that before the tournament. However, seeing their fight in the manga, I don't believe he actually exhibit a level of power nowhere that high, which is only natural since he is still very young and untrained, but he did show his potential, which was what Goku really wanted.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by MDSTSSJ » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:42 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Yet Goku disagrees with you...
No my friend. Goku refers to his base state. SSJ3 Kakarotto lost against Pure Boo. Oob's strength = 10 years ago Pure Boo's strength. After the defeat of Pure Boo Goku said he would be more powerful and in those 10 years Goku trained hard. So clearly: EoZ SSJ3 Goku is a lot stronger than Majin Boo Arc SSJ3 Kakarotto.

So at that time after hard training, is quite conceivable that Goku is much stronger than someone who has the strength of 10 years ago Pure Boo.
Beers >>>>>>>>> U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS Gotenks > Enraged SS2 Vegeta > SS3 Goku > SS2 Vegeta
But I think you are contradicting yourself. If enraged Vegeta amplifies all his power at once, that's not enough to say that he is permanently more powerful than a SSJ3.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:37 am

kuartus4 wrote:Didn't Goku match uub in base, when uub was as strong as kid buu? Meaning Goku really was much, much stronger than uub,considering his ssj transformations, apart from any ssj god power.
Base Goku wasn't stronger than Oob. It's very clear in the fight that Oob is stronger. Oob could tank Goku's hits, while Goku couldn't, and Oob's Kiai overpowered Goku. Oob wasn't trained, so he couldn't control his power properly, which was why the trained Goku could (barely) put a fight with him.
Spoiler:
MDSTSSJ wrote:No my friend. Goku refers to his base state. SSJ3 Kakarotto lost against Pure Boo. Oob's strength = 10 years ago Pure Boo's strength. After the defeat of Pure Boo Goku said he would be more powerful and in those 10 years Goku trained hard. So clearly: EoZ SSJ3 Goku is a lot stronger than Majin Boo Arc SSJ3 Kakarotto.
You want to tell me that while Goku couldn't surpass his SS self from Freeza arc after 18 years, he surpassed his SS3 self after 5 years? Yeah, not buying it.
MDSTSSJ wrote:But I think you are contradicting yourself. If enraged Vegeta amplifies all his power at once, that's not enough to say that he is permanently more powerful than a SSJ3.
I never said he is permanently more powerful, he was just more powerful when he got angry in BoG.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by Blade » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:59 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku was fighting on par with an Uub who didn't know how to use his powers.
Blade wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It states Gohan has the highest potential of any Saiyan. He's the strongest non-God character in this film.
That's a brief character description included in promotional material for the film that doesn't factor in the plot. Besides, potential and power are too dramatically different things. Tell me, when has Gohan's character synopsis ever been any different since the Cell arc? It's a repeated plot-line.

The film's plot is pretty conclusive on the matter. In a post-Battle of Gods fandom, in regard to strength comparison arguments, Vegeta has to be considered stronger than any known character apart from God Goku, Birus and Whiis.
Umm, yes... yes it does factor into the plot. Gohan's potential is greater than any Saiyans. Hidden potential and hidden power are interchangeable. No distinction is ever made between the 2. Vegeta CANNOT surpass Gohan as of this point. To say that he could defies guide books and the official site itself. Vegeta's ability to knock Beers around for a few seconds was a result of Beers being caught off guard, and Beers letting Vegeta hit him to see whether he turned into a SSJ God. Gohan was also intoxicated. Whether you want to believe that factors in is entirely up to you, but the fact is Gohan is the strongest character that isn't a God in this movie.
Based on what? A brief character biography that states he has the highest potential of any of the Saiyans? Not really conclusive, and nothing new.

Battle of Gods contradicts both the manga and the guidebooks - it may not sit well with the fandom, but as an 'official continuation of the manga' it essentially means that any existing guidebooks and information are outdated.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by kuartus4 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:11 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
kuartus4 wrote:Didn't Goku match uub in base, when uub was as strong as kid buu? Meaning Goku really was much, much stronger than uub,considering his ssj transformations, apart from any ssj god power.
Base Goku wasn't stronger than Oob. It's very clear in the fight that Oob is stronger. Oob could tank Goku's hits, while Goku couldn't, and Oob's Kiai overpowered Goku. Oob wasn't trained, so he couldn't control his power properly, which was why the trained Goku could (barely) put a fight with him.
Spoiler:
MDSTSSJ wrote:No my friend. Goku refers to his base state. SSJ3 Kakarotto lost against Pure Boo. Oob's strength = 10 years ago Pure Boo's strength. After the defeat of Pure Boo Goku said he would be more powerful and in those 10 years Goku trained hard. So clearly: EoZ SSJ3 Goku is a lot stronger than Majin Boo Arc SSJ3 Kakarotto.
You want to tell me that while Goku couldn't surpass his SS self from Freeza arc after 18 years, he surpassed his SS3 self after 5 years? Yeah, not buying it.
MDSTSSJ wrote:But I think you are contradicting yourself. If enraged Vegeta amplifies all his power at once, that's not enough to say that he is permanently more powerful than a SSJ3.
I never said he is permanently more powerful, he was just more powerful when he got angry in BoG.
What do you make of goku's line after the fight saying that uub was as amazing as he expected, when before the fight goku was expecting uub to be as strong as kid buu? Doesn't that mean uub is as strong as goku expected? If uub is as strong as kid buu, then base goku would have to be in that tier of power to even hang with uub. Not equal of course, but strong enough that he doesn't get killed by uub. If goku's base was only around frieza, then uub's kiai would have obliterated him.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by Super Vegetto » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:29 am

Oob's ki would obliterated everyone if he used same power that Kid Boo had.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:47 am

Super Vegetto wrote:Oob's ki would obliterated everyone if he used same power that Kid Boo had.
Except that Oob doesn't know how to use ki.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by Super Vegetto » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:50 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Vegetto wrote:Oob's ki would obliterated everyone if he used same power that Kid Boo had.
Except that Oob doesn't know how to use ki.
That's the point.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:09 am

Super Vegetto wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Vegetto wrote:Oob's ki would obliterated everyone if he used same power that Kid Boo had.
Except that Oob doesn't know how to use ki.
That's the point.
Oh sorry, I thought you meant that Oob wasn't as strong as Boo. Because he is, but he just can't use that power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:46 am

Blade wrote:Based on what? A brief character biography that states he has the highest potential of any of the Saiyans? Not really conclusive, and nothing new.

Battle of Gods contradicts both the manga and the guidebooks - it may not sit well with the fandom, but as an 'official continuation of the manga' it essentially means that any existing guidebooks and information are outdated.
Yes, that is conclusive. Gohan can't be surpassed by conventional methods as of this point in time. No they aren't. You're just very close minded about this whole ordeal. Vegeta catching Beers off guard and Beers humoring Vegeta to see whether he was a SSJ God is enough to claim the power hierarchy is exactly the same as it was minus Vegeta being below Goku. When there's an explanation, you don't just say, "nope it's a contradiction because I don't feel like making sense of anything!!!!!!!!"
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by Blade » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:19 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Gohan can't be surpassed by conventional methods as of this point in time. No they aren't. You're just very close minded about this whole ordeal.
What a beautiful oxymoron.

I'm wasting my time with you, you're not getting it. Battle of Gods has more or less revised the state of play at the end of the manga and tossed out the existing guidebook information for character strengths during the period in which it was set. It doesn't matter how much or little sense it makes within the pre-existing strength hierarchies, as an 'official continuation' of the manga, and the latest one at that, it's currently the best and most up-to-date source we have. Get used to it, as for now, that's just how it is.

It's clear that the writing process for Battle of Gods had harbored no intention of preserving a number of continuities, this being is merely an example of such. It's not your job to join all of the dots and make things work and correlate - Battle of Gods is what it is. Stop over-thinking and take it at face value as it's intended to be taken, you're just wasting your time otherwise.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:59 am

^ You are talking like Goku & Vegeta > Gohan & Gotenks in BoG is a fact, while it isn't. Gohan is stated to be stronger than Goku & Vegeta in the beginning of the movie, and Beers is stated to be stronger than Super Vegetto, who is much, much stronger than Goku & Vegeta. Vegeta is only stated to have surpassed Goku, and what he does to Beers, he does it because Beers allowed him to. Beers was caught off-guard & wasn't serious against Vegeta, and he let Vegeta finish his attack because he was hoping that he would power-up into Super Saiyan God. This isn't an interpretation or a theory, it's literally what we see & hear(/read for subs :Ρ) in the movie. Beers took out Gohan & Gotenks quickly because they annoyed him (Gohan got in his way with Boo, and Gotenks pissed him off by bringing up pudding). Add the manga & its related guidebooks, SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta are still below SS(3) Gotenks & U. Gohan. There really isn't much to support with 100% certainty that Goku & Vegeta are stronger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by MDSTSSJ » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:06 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote: Yes, that is conclusive. Gohan can't be surpassed by conventional methods as of this point in time.
Come on Mighty, I always think that you are a really open minded guy on this debates!
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by hleV » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:11 pm

BOG is not an official continuation of the manga, unless stated so.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by MDSTSSJ » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:23 pm

hleV wrote:BOG is not an official continuation of the manga, unless stated so.
You don't liked but, Toriyama says the opposite!
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by MDSTSSJ » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:25 pm

Super Vegetto wrote:Oob's ki would obliterated everyone if he used same power that Kid Boo had.
Not against SSJ3 Kakarotto!
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:48 pm

Dragon Ball has no canon. If you'd like to place BOG in-continuity, no one is stopping you, but no one has to accept it either. It's a movie, and it has many more continuity errors (Goten's height, Gohan going SS, Gotenks not using SS3 after seeing what is supposedly Ultimate Gohan get beat, the whole idea of Goku keeping the god power, the dates occasionally not matching up even though in some cases that could be intentional, Vegeta getting a rage boost, Satan not knowing Dende, etc.) than some of the other ones to boot.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by kuartus4 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:31 pm

How could goku know for certain after the fight, that uub was kid buu if uub had not displayed kid buu tier power? Thats how goku confirmed uub was who he thought he was wasn't it? And how could base goku survive kid buu tier power if he was only frieza tier? He should have been completely destroyed by uub. He would not be able to block or dodge any of uub's attacks, and he would have been torn to shreds by uub's kiai.
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Re: Goku kept SSJ God's power.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:08 pm

kuartus4 wrote:How could goku know for certain after the fight, that uub was kid buu if uub had not displayed kid buu tier power? Thats how goku confirmed uub was who he thought he was wasn't it? And how could base goku survive kid buu tier power if he was only Freeza tier? He should have been completely destroyed by uub. He would not be able to block or dodge any of uub's attacks, and he would have been torn to shreds by uub's kiai.
Oob normally has the power of a normal 10 year-old. However, inside him he hides power many billions times greater. Goku, as an experienced fighter, could see that power through fighting Oob. However, Oob doesn't know how to fight, and of course, he has no idea about ki. So, even when angry, he can't put that power into full use, since he doesn't even know how to control or even use that power, which was probably why Goku could barely keep up with him in base, and survive his hits.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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