Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto?

[TheGmGoken]

History means everything preceding Battle of Gods.

Obviously it doesn't mean that, considering Beerus and Whis are in the history of Z.

Well in a way they are. they was just off screen the whole time

[TheMightyOzaru]

History means everything preceding Battle of Gods.

We find out about Beerus and Whis before BOG's release, and they happen to be in the history of Z at the time the statement is made.

(Edited.)

Except they aren't because they are IN Battle of Gods. They're not in everything within the manga are they? No? Ok then, like I said we can move on now .

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Firstly, "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" has nothing to do with this because I don't claim it to be a literal formula and nothing else, it's how I interpret it personally.

But this didn't come from Toriyama, no matter how you look at it. So, it should be dismissed by your logic.

You, on the other hand, support a statement which is obviously invalid.

No, it's not. The History of Z is the past, and BoG wasn't even made at that point. If you believe that it's invalid, stick with your opinion, and I'll stick with mine.

The reason I even mentioned Toriyama is because when a contradictory statement comes from a guy who didn't even write the story, it's even easier to dismiss it (emphasizing my surprise at your failure to do so).

And why should I dismiss it? Does it contradict anything? Because if it doesn't, I have no reason to do it. And it doesn't IMO. We learn that Whis' power is a mystery, and that Beers is the strongest guy in DBZ so far. Then, it turns out that the real strongest is Whis. It's not that hard.

As for manga Vegetto vs anime Vegetto, they're obviously different because one went SS from the start and the other fought Boo in base before feeling the need to go SS.

I disagree. I believe that anime Vegetto got too confident and believed that he didn't need Super Saiyan. I don't believe though that base Vegetto is stronger than Gohan Boo, so I just count it as Toei bullshit.

[TheGmGoken]

I believe that anime Vegetto got too confident and believed that he didn't need Super Saiyan.

I thought Base Vegetto didin't need SSJ in the anime. Seeing as he kicked Boo's ass in Base. I thought he use SSJ to beat his ass more

[hleV]

We find out about Beerus and Whis before BOG's release, and they happen to be in the history of Z at the time the statement is made.

(Edited.)

Except they aren't because they are IN Battle of Gods.

Goku is in BOG as well. Your point? "Beerus is the strongest IN the history of Z" speaks for itself: Beerus is IN the history of Z. Again, we came to know Beerus and Whis before BOG's release, BOG not being released at that time has nothing to do with anything here, because we were already familiar with the characters.

They're not in everything within the manga are they? No? Ok then, like I said we can move on now .

what

But this didn't come from Toriyama, no matter how you look at it. So, it should be dismissed by your logic.

It not coming from Toriyama isn't a reason to dismiss it. It's easier to dismiss it because it came from someone who didn't write the story.

The History of Z is the past, and BoG wasn't even made at that point. If you believe that it's invalid, stick with your opinion, and I'll stick with mine.

Whatever the history of Z is, Beerus (and with him, Whis as well) is in it (because he's "the strongest in it") and there's no counter-argument to that.

And why should I dismiss it?

Because of it being contradictory.

Does it contradict anything?

Yes.

Because if it doesn't, I have no reason to do it.

If it wouldn't, I wouldn't have a reason to do it neither.

And it doesn't IMO.

Facts > opinions.

We learn that Whis' power is a mystery, and that Beers is the strongest guy in DBZ so far.

We learn that Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z (meaning he's in the history of Z), and that's contradictory.

Then, it turns out that the real strongest is Whis. It's not that hard.

Yes, it's very simple. The statement is contradictory.

I disagree. I believe that anime Vegetto got too confident and believed that he didn't need Super Saiyan. I don't believe though that base Vegetto is stronger than Gohan Boo, so I just count it as Toei bullshit.

So you disagree that manga Vegetto and anime Vegetto are different but point out that anime Vegetto did something that manga Vegetto didn't do, making them different? You're contradicting yourself.

[TheMightyOzaru]

hleV, I suggest you stop making yourself look like a pretentious ass and just accept your wrong. It's like you against everyone else .

[TheGmGoken]

No disrespect you hleV but your post on this topic makes zero sense. Sorry. It just does.

[hleV]

Does "Superman is the strongest in the history of Z" make sense to any of you?
If it doesn't, how can "Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z" make sense if Beerus doesn't belong to that history of Z?

If you really can't tell the obvious, that being the strongest in something means that one is associated to that something, then we shall, indeed, end this discussion.

[dario03]

There is no right answer but I like to think Bils is stronger than SS Vegetto and probably stronger than ss2 and ss3. I also don't think Vegetto's strength is Goku x Vegeta since that doesn't have to be taking literally, isn't needed to accomplish what he did, and I prefer to not have him so high. Theres also the issue of measurements, you would have to assume his battle power was like a bp^2 since if you used that formula literally a bp based level would end up stronger than kili based level Vegetto even if Goku and Vegeta started at the same comparative strengths (though I don't worry about that to much since we don't really know how either measurement system works so maybe it could work)

[Rocketman]

Billy is not guaranteed to be stronger than Super Vegetto, only stronger than the power Super Vegetto showed against Buu.

[MasterVampire]

The way I see it Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed was toying with SSJ3 Goku just like how Beers was toying with SSJ3 Goku.
But then Super Vegeto was strong enough to be toying with Super Buu.
So if SSJ2 and SSJ3 Super Vegeto would be even stronger then that then surely it would be enough to beat Beers.

[Mewzard]

I'm pretty sure it's the case. What's the point of SSJ God if Vegetto could defeat Bills? Maybe for an even stronger foe you could bust out SSJ God Vegetto, but that's neither here nor there.

[TheGmGoken]

I'm pretty sure it's the case. What's the point of SSJ God if Vegetto could defeat Bills? Maybe for an even stronger foe you could bust out SSJ God Vegetto, but that's neither here nor there.

Because there is no way for Vegetto to be there(Don't mention Surpeme And Kibito Kai.). What you expect him to pop up from no where and say "ALLLL RIGHT!"

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm pretty sure it's the case. What's the point of SSJ God if Vegetto could defeat Bills? Maybe for an even stronger foe you could bust out SSJ God Vegetto, but that's neither here nor there.

Because there is no way for Vegetto to be there(Don't mention Surpeme And Kibito Kai.). What you expect him to pop up from no where and say "ALLLL RIGHT!"

Well, Vegeta and Goku could use the Potara and then diffuse by getting absorbed by Buu.

[Mewzard]

I'm pretty sure it's the case. What's the point of SSJ God if Vegetto could defeat Bills? Maybe for an even stronger foe you could bust out SSJ God Vegetto, but that's neither here nor there.

Because there is no way for Vegetto to be there(Don't mention Surpeme And Kibito Kai.). What you expect him to pop up from no where and say "ALLLL RIGHT!"

Well, even assuming they couldn't just make new earrings by then, there's the Fusion Dance, they could wish to be combined, etc.

This is Goku after even more training since the time of the Buu Saga and with a new form. Why can't he be stronger than the Vegetto of old? He was able to fight a guy who flicked him aside in SSJ3 easily. Even 10 times stronger, he'd still be doing terribly.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gogeta isn't as strong as Vegetto.

[TheGmGoken]

Well, even assuming they couldn't just make new earrings by then, there's the Fusion Dance, they could wish to be combined, etc.

Really? Wish to be combine. I know this is Shoenen and I know DBZ has some weird plot device moments but c'mon. Not to sound rude or anything. But not even the most plot device anime-manga don't even use something as simple, cheezy, and lame ass idea as that. Let's not forget that Vegeta(Hates fusion) and Goku(Is a respect fighter.) don't like fusion. Hell Goku hated SSg. Lastly Birsu isn't a fusion so why would Goku want to fuse?

[Mewzard]

The series used a wish granting Dragon to cheapen death. That falls under simple, cheesy and lame ass. Takes the consequence out of death, especially with Goku, who managed to cheat death more than even most people were allowed through other means.

Also, he may not be a fusion, but being a proper god in terms of power does put him beyond the other fused beings in series.

Look, the point is, whether you like it or not, he was stated to be the strongest person in the history of Z. The fact that he wasn't made until later doesn't change the fact that his appearance occurs near the end of that history, post-Buu Saga, and Goku being close to his strength (relatively at least) most likely means he surpassed Vegetto's power.

[goku the krump dancer]

Beers might be stronger that SSJ1 Vegetto but Godku is not. I tend to believe that Godku and SSJ1 Vegetto are more or less even.

A hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto tops out at Omega Shenron imo. Beers is equal to SSJ4 Goku both of witch have a noticeable gap of power over SSJ1 Vegetto and Godku.

[TheGmGoken]

The series used a wish granting Dragon to cheapen death. That falls under simple, cheesy and lame ass. Takes the consequence out of death, especially with Goku, who managed to cheat death more than even most people were allowed through other means.

I said DBZ have some plot devices sure(That Namek wish had the biggest one) BUT NEVER will they have a lame ass and bullshit plot device as the one you mentioned(No offense). Seriously I really DOUBT they would want to wish for Goku and Vegeta to be Vegetto. That would be OOC for both Goku and Vegeta. Cheating death is one thing for DBZ. But not even a Shoene anime can snoop that low.