Let's look the statement more deeply. What the guy that wrote that statement is "We won't tell you anything about Whis, but as for Beers, he is the strongest guy we've seen in DBZ so far, meaning that he is stronger than even Vegetto". That's the message they want to pass. They don't want to say "Whis is weaker than Beers, and Beers is stronger than anyone so far in DBZ".hleV wrote:↑ While I perfectly understand what you're saying, the statement is not "Beerus is stronger than anyone you've seen in the series", it's "Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z", which in turn is invalid because if he's in the history of Z, then so is Whis, and Whis is stronger than Beerus, no matter whether it's revealed to us yet or not. It's not right to call Beerus the strongest when Whis is (secretly) stronger. It's an invalid statement and you're trying to justify it for unknown reasons.
Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Its mainly because of the statement's wording, where it says that Beerus is indeed the strongest while actually he's not. If the guy who made the statement cared/didn't want to make it contradictory/knew of Whis being stronger than Beerus, he could've worded it better and we wouldn't have this discussion. But since it is what it is, I have to question the statement's reliability when putting Beerus against other characters. This is essentially why I don't say that Beerus is weaker than Vegetto, but I do say that there's no reliable evidence to support him being stronger neither. If the statement's author forgot about Whis, maybe he forgot about Vegetto, and only considered Boo? Such questions wouldn't be asked if the statement wasn't contradictory.Kaboom wrote:Wait, do some people think that just because Whis was revealed to be stronger than Beers, that Beers' stated rank as stronger than everyone else is somehow null and void? Doesn't anyone know how suspense and storytelling work?
You may try to guess what "message they wanted to pass", but that's about it, really. I may as well just guess that the statement's author didn't know what he was talking about (he didn't exactly write the story after all, maybe he missed something). Hence why I can't accept the statement as undeniable proof of Beerus' superiority over Vegetto.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Let's look the statement more deeply. What the guy that wrote that statement is "We won't tell you anything about Whis, but as for Beers, he is the strongest guy we've seen in DBZ so far, meaning that he is stronger than even Vegetto". That's the message they want to pass. They don't want to say "Whis is weaker than Beers, and Beers is stronger than anyone so far in DBZ".
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
The statement most likely came from someone who was involved to the story. A random guy shouldn't know anything about Beers.hleV wrote:You may try to guess what "message they wanted to pass", but that's about it, really. I may as well just guess that the statement's author didn't know what he was talking about (he didn't exactly write the story after all, maybe he missed something). Hence why I can't accept the statement as undeniable proof of Beerus' superiority over Vegetto.
But they didn't forget Whis, they purposely hid the fact that he is even stronger.hleV wrote:If the statement's author forgot about Whis, maybe he forgot about Vegetto, and only considered Boo? Such questions wouldn't be asked if the statement wasn't contradictory.
And we never learned that Beers was weaker. We only learned that Whis is stronger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
(Note that I don't claim that the statement's author actually forgot Whis, I'm just discussing a hypothetical situation.) The way the statement is worded is as if Whis didn't even exist. If they had considered Whis, maybe the statement would've been worded better. That's one way to look at it, isn't it?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But they didn't forget Whis, they purposely hid the fact that he is even stronger.hleV wrote:If the statement's author forgot about Whis, maybe he forgot about Vegetto, and only considered Boo? Such questions wouldn't be asked if the statement wasn't contradictory.
Meaning that Beerus isn't the strongest, thus the statement is invalid.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And we never learned that Beers was weaker. We only learned that Whis is stronger.
Last edited by hleV on Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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SSJ3_Gogeta
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
I would guess that SSJG Goku is around SSJ2 Vegito level of power, with SSJ3 Vegito being stronger than SSJG and Beerus.
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Meaning that Beers isn't stronger than Whis, not that Beers isn't stronger than Vegetto.hleV wrote:Meaning that Beerus isn't the strongest, thus the statement is invalid.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And we never learned that Beers was weaker. We only learned that Whis is stronger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Apparently not >_>.Kaboom wrote:Wait, do some people think that just because Whis was revealed to be stronger than Beers, that Beers' stated rank as stronger than everyone else is somehow null and void? Doesn't anyone know how suspense and storytelling work?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Meaning the statement is invalid.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Meaning that Beers isn't stronger than Whis, not that Beers isn't stronger than Vegetto.hleV wrote:Meaning that Beerus isn't the strongest, thus the statement is invalid.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And we never learned that Beers was weaker. We only learned that Whis is stronger.
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Or it means it was a fun little retcon that doesn't affect Beers superiority over everyone else in DBZ 
. Like Kaboom said, do you even know how story telling and suspense work?
. Like Kaboom said, do you even know how story telling and suspense work?Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Not 100% invalid.hleV wrote:Meaning the statement is invalid.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
I don't see anyone going with "it's a fun little retcon" for any other DB contradictions.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Or it means it was a fun little retcon
Well, I know storytelling and suspense have nothing to do with providing official statements that are outright wrong.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Like Kaboom said, do you even know how story telling and suspense work?
So you just choose what's valid and what's invalid in a statement. Great.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not 100% invalid.hleV wrote:Meaning the statement is invalid.
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Of course, because that was the intention of the statement. They lied on purpose to make us believe that Beers is stronger than Whis for the plot-twist in the end of the movie, but there is no reason to believe that Beers is weaker than Vegetto, especially when the whole movie implies that Beers really is stronger than Vegetto.hleV wrote:So you just choose what's valid and what's invalid in a statement. Great.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
It's not about choosing what's valid or invalid within a statement. The people who made that statement clearly believe Beers is above everyone in Z, Whis aside at this point.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Oh I'm completely fine with implications being implications. I'm not fine with people claiming that a contradictory statement (or a statement which is a lie, as you pointed out) is reliable. Basically the movie itself may suggest Beerus being stronger than Vegetto (I have yet to see BOG with subs/dub) and I have no problem with that, however when the only supposedly "hard proof" is a statement which happens to be contradictory, it is safe to say that there's no definite proof of Beerus' superiority over Vegetto.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: there is no reason to believe that Beers is weaker than Vegetto, especially when the whole movie implies that Beers really is stronger than Vegetto.
Last edited by hleV on Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
I'm not fine with people disregarding something because they are Mr. Boohoo Butthurt. Honestly, this the only reason you want to disregard the statement. Sure, you can claim it's contradicted by Whis being stronger than Beers, but that doesn't change the fact that Beers was intended to be stronger than everyone else.hleV wrote:Oh I'm completely fine with implications being implications. I'm not fine with people claiming that a contradictory statement (or a statement which is a lie, as you pointed out) is reliable.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: there is no reason to believe that Beers is weaker than Vegetto, especially when the whole movie implies that Beers really is stronger than Vegetto.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Well, that's your problem. Besides, "history" means past, right? Meaning that Beers is stronger than anyone in DBZ before BoG. So, it's not really a contradictory statement.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
Well yes, because I have a completely valid reason to have a problem with that.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, that's your problem.
I thought we were past that?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Besides, "history" means past, right? Meaning that Beers is stronger than anyone in DBZ before BoG. So, it's not really a contradictory statement.
hleV wrote:Does "Superman is the strongest in the history of Z" make sense to any of you?
If it doesn't, how can "Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z" make sense if Beerus doesn't belong to that history of Z?
If you really can't tell the obvious, that being the strongest in something means that one is associated to that something, then we shall, indeed, end this discussion.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
How would the statement have to be phrased using history then?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
It still doesn't make the statement being untrustworthy a fact. It's your opinion that it's untrustworthy, and it's mine opinion that it's not.hleV wrote:Well yes, because I have a completely valid reason to have a problem with that.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, that's your problem.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto
I think we're actually going somewhere! Yes, it's for you to decide whether a contradictory statement is trustworthy or not. Just don't go around claiming that it's not contradictory at all and is definitely trustworthy.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It still doesn't make the statement being untrustworthy a fact. It's your opinion that it's untrustworthy, and it's mine opinion that it's not.