When did super saiyans stop being special to you? Did they?

[PhoenixEX]

Anyone else feel like SSJ4 Gohan for Dragon Ball Heroes is imminent?

[Vegard Aune]

Hmmm... Probably after Gohan's transformation in the Cell Games, I guess. Partially because I feel like Super Saiyan 3 never really accounted to anything. Yeah, Goku gave Boo a good fight with it a couple of times, but when it all comes down to it, that's all that form was ever good for; Stalling for time until they could defeat Boo with something else. And Super Saiyan God... Isn't it pretty much universally agreed that Goku VS Beers only really got good after he lost that powerup? After which point he kept fighting as just a normal Super Saiyan, not in his self-described most powerful form, Super Saiyan 3. Can't comment on Super Saiyan 4 as I haven't seen that far in GT yet.

[Tyro]

Honestly, I'm not sure it ever started out as special to me. Even without the Internet, some kids in my class already knew about GT and the latter part of Z so I knew Goku wasn't the only SS in the long run. I guess that took away from its legendary status.

[Bullza]

When Goten and Trunks went SSJ. That never should have happened.

[dbzfan7]

And Super Saiyan God... Isn't it pretty much universally agreed that Goku VS Beers only really got good after he lost that powerup?

I can't be sure if it's universally agreed, but I believe their bout was really lackluster and only got good once Goku went to base and SSJ.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

When the super saiyan form became a childs play thing.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

When the super saiyan form became a childs play thing.

^ That. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks were basically established as universe-wide power record-breakers; after a while they were allowed to do what they did because they were special, what they'd done had not been done before, far as we know. Goten and kid Trunks killed that, and what's more, for the completely reverse reason: they needed the form to attempt to amount to anything.

[Saiga]

^ Except Future Trunks could transform into a Super Saiyan while he, as a Super Saiyan, was still weaker than base Gohan.

But for me, Super Saiyan never stopped being special. Actually, it didn't start out that way. It was the Cell arc that made it special to me, and if it wasn't for the fact that new forms and grades were explored I probably wouldn't have found it to be such a big deal.

The only thing that do hurt it, for me, is Dragon Ball Heroes whoring out the SS3 form. But that hurts my opinion of DBH more than it hurts my opinion of the Super Saiyan concept.

[Blade]

The only thing that do hurt it, for me, is Dragon Ball Heroes whoring out the SS3 form. But that hurts my opinion of DBH more than it hurts my opinion of the Super Saiyan concept.

I really don't know why this is proving so contentious. Firstly it's a spin-off game that has nothing to do with the actual continuity of the show and secondly fans were crying out for more Super Saiyan 3 forms for years, heck, I'm pretty sure Raging Blast sold a good chunk of copies alone for the fact that Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta was unlockable. It's a proven marketing tactic, and it's clearly paying dividends - Dragonball Heroes has been popular for years, and it's still going strong!

[Saiga]

The only thing that do hurt it, for me, is Dragon Ball Heroes whoring out the SS3 form. But that hurts my opinion of DBH more than it hurts my opinion of the Super Saiyan concept.

I really don't know why this is proving so contentious. Firstly it's a spin-off game that has nothing to do with the actual continuity of the show and secondly fans were crying out for more Super Saiyan 3 forms for years, heck, I'm pretty sure Raging Blast sold a good chunk of copies alone for the fact that Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta was unlockable. It's a proven marketing tactic, and it's clearly paying dividends - Dragonball Heroes has been popular for years, and it's still going strong!

I like Vegeta having the form, because I think it's logical that he could reach it himself, but I think Heroes took it to ridiculous levels when they gave it to Future Gohan and Future Trunks from before he time travelled. That's just incredibly bizarre and thanks to Heroes we have more Super Saiyan 3's running around than Super Saiyan 2's. So I guess I should have mentioned that I dislike that Super Saiyan 2 is being so underutilized, even if I understand the reasons behind it (not as marketable, barely even distinguishable from Super Saiyan 1).

And even if it's a smart business choice, I don't have to like it.

[Kid Buu]

SSJ2 felt entirely pointless, should have just kept it as SSJ1 with Gohan's anger boost. SSJ3 I liked, especially the drawback.

[Saiga]

Super Saiyan 2 is my favourite of the forms, it's subtle appearance change is a perfect contrast to Super Saiyan Grade III, and it doesn't go too far in the other direction like Super Saiyan God did. I feel it was necessary to complete the arc's exploration of the Super Saiyan form, finding the proper way to surpass Super Saiyan instead of taking on flawed forms Trunks and Vegeta took.

The only thing I didn't like is how it was introduced. I feel giving Gohan a transformation to have him surpass Cell takes away from his RoSaT training and his own hidden power (after all, it's a transformation others can achieve) and tying it to his rage boost also takes away from Super Saiyan 2's importance. Basically I think combining both concepts hurt them both individually.

[penguintruth]

When Bardock became one.

BARDOCK.

[Cursed Lemon]

I think you guys are discounting the amount of character development that was made possible due to Gohan's transformation. Well, maybe you're not, but I think putting Gohan so many leagues above Cell was absolutely perfect for all of the events that followed after. But I just love the look of SSJ2, so maybe I'm biased.

[Vijay]

Consider I'm one of those few exception fanboy who never found Super Saiyan as "special".

I always thought the form itself was "power-up" to provide great strength, thus great fight, thus I'm entertained! Simple.

Maybe that's one of the reasons on why I never found Goten & Trunks acheiving SSJ as "kids play" or "ridiculous over-power" etc. Its normal.

I knew Super Saiyan's gonna be the staple of the show, so what's the big deal with "special" & "non-special"?

No offence.

[Kakarot88]

As soon as Goten did it no effort...and then Trunks...at that point the Legendary Super Saiyan was reduced to a child's play thing.

The decline began as soon as Piccolo fusing with Kami made him on that level also

[Blade]

As soon as Goten did it no effort...and then Trunks...at that point the Legendary Super Saiyan was reduced to a child's play thing.

The decline began as soon as Piccolo fusing with Kami made him on that level also

I think that Trunks and Goten having Super Saiyan was kind of important to make them even remotely relevant. I mean, if they weren't powerful enough to at least become Super Saiyans, then having them fuse to fight Majin Buu - an incredibly powerful adversary, would seem even more utterly ridiculous.

I always put it down to reactive adaptability - the idea that Saiyans feed off of each other, and naturally develop their power in context to the strength of those around them. Goten and Trunks were around Vegeta and Gohan their entire lives, and therefore it makes sense that their own power would adapt to being around such strong people. It also explains how the human characters, and even Piccolo, are eventually left behind completely, whereas the Saiyans continue to grow and develop almost endlessly.

[Kakarot88]

Re: Blade

Oh yeah it was def needed to make them relevant I was just saying by that point SS1 was like "What you can't transform, bro do you even lift?"

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

^ Except Future Trunks could transform into a Super Saiyan while he, as a Super Saiyan, was still weaker than base Gohan.

And then later he learns both the grade forms and is on nearly equal terms with Perfect Cell.

But for me, Super Saiyan never stopped being special. Actually, it didn't start out that way. It was the Cell arc that made it special to me, and if it wasn't for the fact that new forms and grades were explored I probably wouldn't have found it to be such a big deal.

I absolutely love the Super Sayain grades for this; they were treated as experiments even after Vegeta started wrecking Cell (even by Vegeta, retroactively), their use reflected the sensibilities (or lack thereof, in Trunks' case) of the characters using them, and Grade 3's being too slow to fight at Perfect Cell's level threw the series entire assumption of "Greater ki wins the day" out the window, at least temporarily, forcing Goku to stick with a technically weaker transformation. Grade 3's failure was anti-climatic, but at the same time it completely leaves the reader/viewer guessing as to where the Saiyains could go from there to beat Cell.

It's also been interpreted as Toriyama making an unintentional comment on how stupid overtly bulky shonen characters look, but given that Toriyama preferred lean characters for most of the series history anyway, it's still meta.

[Beji]

It stopped being special to me as a source of power once the new movie came out. Super Saiyan was something that was such an extreme power up and that it could keep getting stronger until they reached 3 and in GT 4 and I still found 4 to be awesome. The kids made sense to be sort of off the "Super Saiyan Sperm" theory that it was possible they could transform more easily because the two kids were born from fathers that achieved the form already. I always found that interesting and believed it possible. But when the bony God cat came down and was able to knock out everything with chopsticks, and one hits even with Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu (the character with tons of stamina and could take so much more damage than any character we've seen knocked out by a headbutt?) As soon as a "God" form was introduced it eliminated the specialness of "Super Saiyan form" as much as Super Saiyan eliminated the "Kaioken form". But God form eliminated the specialness in power of any person unless they had God power.... Dragon Ball was known to have the Kaioshins who I believed to be more of the "Gods" of the series to be quite strong but it was the Saiyans and other worldly fighters and creations that were able to surpass them. Bills makes anything without God powers on the useless level. No Tien holding back a second form Cell. No Vegeta holding back Pure Buu. It was complete domination with nothing coming even close. Super Saiyan cannot do anything to the "God form" Goku was given and worse off is as far as we know the only way is with 5 Saiyans to power up another. Vegeta cannot train to be at that level, he needs to call up the 5 pure of heart Saiyans for a get together.

Nonetheless I believe Super Saiyan to still be awesome and special as a form. But just useless and boring as a way to fight a strong enemy. All enemies all Bills' level can only be fought at with God level or higher which really makes it boring making the fighter pool shrink from the Z fighters of Saiyan Saga dwindle down to the handful at the Buu Saga and unless more get God form, just Goku...