Son_Gohan wrote:It takes 4 pages of Piccolo fighting against him until anyone makes mention of his strength. If their statements were truly being based on the Ki that was being given off by him and not from what actions were being observed, it would have been brought up from the very start. But their focus was clearly on what they were seeing. Unlike with Goku who was expected to be the only one capable of defeating them, Piccolo dominating #20 appeared as a big shock, keeping them captivated until Krillin points out only a Super Saiyan should be able to do that.
Uh, aside from showing the surprise on their faces, the only dialogue in-between was from #20 and then it immediately shows Trunks. So the idea that they would have to immediately comment on his power is a bit outlandish. What matters is that they
did comment on his power and were thoroughly impressed with it as the fight went on. His strength is directly noted
twice. Again, I'm still trying to understand why "seeing" the battle is such a big deal in regards to Piccolo's power. They were right there, so they were
only in a position to watch the fight and comment accordingly. They were able to comprehend what Piccolo was capable of. It came off as a shock because they had no idea Piccolo was that strong. It was his first time showing his power, after all.
On the contrary, the story does not lead the reader to accept these statements at face value. Through reading it from its complete narrative context as was originally intended, the whole situation is unraveled to be a delusion: with Trunks suddenly reappearing with discrepant tidings and Piccolo giving the proposition of them having gotten too strong or they being the ones that didn’t live up to the hype. The latter subsequently proves to be the case; the real Androids turned out as overwhelmingly superior. Once again the plot does not support Piccolo becoming too strong, it actually contradicts it. The initial Androids never had to be that powerful, Piccolo could’ve already been stronger than #20 even without those 3 years of training.
The only thing we know is the Initial Androids are weaker than the real Androids, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo. That's it. Sure, they don't have to be that
powerful--but on the same token, they don't have to be that
weak, either. I've seen some have them as low as Freeza before using 50% of his power. There's no reason for them to be that weak, yet still be able to take a beating from a Super Saiyan, weakened or not. The humans were no match for them, nor was Gohan, and he trained with Goku and Piccolo. There's enough of a middle-ground for the Initial Androids to be average, but still a problem rather than stupidly weak or powerful.
As for them not living up to the hype, that's true--but that says more about them than it would Piccolo. Just because they didn't meet their expectations in no way implies Piccolo still didn't make astonishing leaps from his training; especially when Krillin obviously knows he had special training. Last but not least, we know Piccolo, like the Super Saiyans, greatly exceeded #20's calculations:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.1
Context: after Piccolo beats him up
No.20: “W-why you…To think that even Piccolo had increased his power this much…”
So Piccolo did get
that much stronger. How strong? No telling.
Trunks is merely the instrument used to convey it; the story does not put stress on the idea of Piccolo having a surprisingly powerful Ki because that’s not really what it’s trying to impart. Cell was self-admittedly above Piccolo’s level when he remarks on it from afar, yet it still warrants merit because it holds true to the events as they are. The circumstances surrounding #19 & #20 were shrouded in a cloud of doubt that the reader is not left to soundly trust.
Cell never noticed his Chi until the fight was already a couple pages in, similar to what you were saying about Krillin and Piccolo above. Piccolo powered-up immediately after he arrived on the island, yet it still didn't get Cell's attention right away. Besides, Cell already sensed Piccolo and knew what he was capable of from earlier; there was really no surprise factor here. Cell wanted to find the Androids and became ecstatic because he knew the powerful Chi meant he was that much closer to his evolution. Piccolo just doesn't have a huge burst of power like the Super Saiyans early on because he lacks a transformation--that's the main difference. Before merging with Kami, he didn't emit an enormous amount of Chi.
The story, however, places enough emphasis on Piccolo's power to have him mentioned in the same category as a Super Saiyan, which I think deserves more credit than you're willing to give it. It also paints him as someone in a elite class of power--when Tien notes how much he dislikes seeing how powerful Piccolo and Vegeta are:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”
Don't forget that this is the same Tien who acknowledged how Super Saiyan Goku appeared to be in another dimension and thought Piccolo was crazy for mentioning how "weak" Goku looked.
The idea of Piccolo becoming as strong as SSj Goku on Namek is only founded upon uncertainties. It’s never explicated how powerful he got at Kaio’s, that he’d be able to make such gains without relying on assimilation, or that sparring with a Super Saiyan would be such an effective means of increasing power. There is no stable groundwork that has been built for such a belief, so to expect a reader to come that conclusion and put that much of their own thought into it is nonsense; it is more likely that is not the case.
I asked you for a necessary level for Piccolo when he fights #20. Tell me what you consider appropriate by this point. Btw, I think the story is more than adequate in showing Piccolo has had a tendency in making tremendous leaps in power.
Piccolo had a significant gain after training for the Saiyans. And this is while he's training Gohan.
Piccolo feels as though he's made great progress on Kaio's planet:
Chapter: 293 (DBZ 99), P4.3
Context: Piccolo talking about wanting to fight Freeza
Piccolo: “My power has vastly increased here! I’ll definitely defeat him! Call me to that planet!”
Of course he had no idea how much of a monster Freeza was. Still, Piccolo believes he's improved a lot from his training. Nail seems to think the same:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
I don't know about you, but "acquired unbelievable power" sounds like quite an incredible gain of power from Kaio's training.
The quotes from #20, Krillin and Tien shows that Piccolo made quite an improvement in power, too.
Everything ends up in a grey area pretty much. The Initial Androids aren't as powerful as they were hyped up to be, so how strong are they? Piccolo's much stronger than before, but he's not as strong as the Super Saiyans. How strong is he? Nothing has a straight answer, which is why I believe most of this is left up to the reader.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
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